Getting older Pyr to accept new pyr puppy

[tandemchick]

Hi everyone. My husband I are long-time readers, first-time posters here.

At any rate, we've had Tiny for 3 years (will be 3 years officially August 22) now. He's a Pyr/Anatolian mix, has the Anatolian coloring but more of the Pyr personality. He's very alpha, very serious, super gentle and loving, and has always gotten along really well with other dogs. We think he's close to 4 years old, but don't know for sure since he was a rescue (left abandoned, tied to a phone pole ). When we first adopted him, he had massive separation anxiety, trust issues (as any dog would after being abandoned), was emaciated, ended up being heart worm positive, etc. Basically, our poor big guy went through A LOT his first year and a half of life. That being said, he's the most awesome dog ever, and we figured he was at the right age for a new little sister--old enough to teach her the ropes, but still young enough that he isn't a crotchety old dog.

We brought his new little sister home Friday night. Kimber was the biggest female of the litter (poor Mama delivered AND kept alive ELEVEN pyr pups), the most outgoing, independent and, well, dominant of the females. We fell in love and thought, "Okay, this is the perfect little sister for Tiny." At first, Tiny was okay. Wary, but okay. Pretty much ignored her. Saturday morning, though, he started growling at her, full lip curled and muzzle vibrating growling. He hasn't snapped at her, just growled, and sometimes almost seems startled when she bounces up to him (which I think is part of the growling). Kimber just started her 7th week on Thursday (with 11 BIG pups, Mama was dry and obviously tired and looking pretty bad, and they'd been on solid food for a couple of weeks), and she's obviously still very much a baby. Tiny's only met one other puppy in his life--and that was Saturday at PetsMart (another Pyr pup, oddly enough)--and he growled at THAT puppy, too, when the puppy exuberantly approached him.

From everything we've been able to find online, he's basically teaching her etiquette and that there are certain ways to approach each other. He's letting her follow him as he patrols the fence line of the backyard, and will growl very lightly if she gets a little too close, and every now and then he'll go up to her and sniff at her. She immediately rolls over and shows him her belly, but as soon as she so much as twitches he jumps away, growls, and then runs away like the hounds of hell are at his back paws. She's very persistent, though, and doesn't seem to be letting it get her down; she'll just go off and do her own thing for a few minutes, and then try to approach him again.

That long-winded explanation brings me to this: A: is this normal Pyr behavior when you introduce a Pyr pup into the household and B: how long should it last before we start to worry?

We're supervising them together, letting him out first, feeding him first in the evenings, making sure to give him attention separate from and together with Kimber. He's completely crate trained, and we're working with her, so we're letting him know we still trust him by letting him have free reign of the house like normal. Basically, we're trying to keep his routine as normal as possible while realizing that bringing a puppy into the house has probably completely disrupted his routine. Any advice? Thanks in advance!

[nick's spirit]

Welcome to the forum!!
Sounds like you are doing the right things, taking it slowly & watching for any real agression. Without seeing his posture & eye, I would agree with you that he is teaching her manners.
We got Nick when Spirit (our female) was about 5. She was a bossy girl, & snarled & growled at Nick, never snapping unless he happened to sit on her sore knees (she had surgery on both knees, luxating patellas) Nick was never discouraged, he followed her every where!! I would say it took them a good month of living together until she finally decided he was okay to have around. Nick would play with our Aussie as we walked up the hill & then with Spirit on the way home! He learned to play gently with her, as her knees were not that strong, and sometimes caused her pain.
I would say that is normal behavior for any type of dog you would have brought into the house, not just a Pyr.
Keep us informed on how they grow together!!
Nancy & Holly

[Jewel]

Yep, agree with Nancy, sounds like pretty normal dog behavior. Not every dog likes puppies; after all, puppies are bouncy, spastic (for the most part) and do not know manners!

When we adopted my male Bro from Petsmart, our first pyr was about 5 yrs old. Bro was a total impulse adoption; we were at Petsmart for our regular Sat. visit with our first pyr and Bro's litter was there for adoption and he came home with us. We had absolutely no preparation for a new puppy Our first pyr took to him right away and he fell head over heels for her at first sight.

Our first pyr died and we got Bijou. Bro was nearly 4 when Bijou arrived as a 8 week old pup. Bijou was assertive from the moment she arrived, and Bro did not like her very much. In the first week, she provoked him to actually snap at her 3 times. I remember hearing the hard smack of his teeth hitting the top of her head. He didn't bite her, just gave her really hard cuffs to warn her off. She would be momentarily stunned, then be right back at harrassing him within the hour. After a week he gave in and they've gotten along just fine since.

[Espinay]

Yep, normal. Puppies have cooties LOL! Just give them time and you need to intervene to make sure the pup doesn't hassle the older dog too much. In a few weeks you should find they have the relationship and routine beginnig to work fairly well.

7 weeks is a bit young to be taken away from the litter. A breeder will generally keep a pup until they are 8 weeks of age as this allows time for first vaccinations to take effect, for the pup to be completely weaned and the breeder to be happy they are consuming solid foods well for for a few weeks before they go, and for the pups to have that important social interaction with littermates that happens in the 6 to 8 week window. (it is actually against regulations/code of ethics for many breeders to send a pup to its new home before 8 weeks of age). Even with 11 pups, this is what most responsible breeders will do. You may need to watch for potential issues with lack of bite inhibition and social skills with your pup as it matures as this can be a common issue with pups taken from the litter too soon.

That said, that your older dog is having the odd grumble to put your pup in its place can be a good thing. Pups need to learn manners and I personally much prefer pups to be around a 'schoolmarm' type dog than one that lets them walk all over them. Have a read of Suzanne Clothier's excellent article 'he just want's to say hi' for more info on this: http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/42/97/

[Maggie's mom]

I've gone through this a few times over the past couple years, and I've come to realize...dog/puppy dynamics are fascinating!! We brought Jazz (Samoyed puppy) into our home after our older Sammie (Trouble) died, and her brother (Max, 12+ yrs old) was very debilitated. When Max passed away a few months later, I started looking for a buddy for Jazz...we brought Maggie (pyr puppy) into our home when Jazz was 8 mos old. I recently adopted Arlo (pyr puppy...Jazz, 18 mos old, Maggie 1 yr old)
A few things I've learned:
1)Puppy "passes" go a long way. Yes, the older guys teach manners, and sometimes it sounds harsh. The older guys rarely hurt the pup, unless they get carried away playing. The puppies can be annoying, and the older guys growl, sometimes snap, and often try to avoid the new little irritant...but they are usually very tolerant and gentle. They can effectively teach bite inhibition and respect much better than we humans can!
2) It has been said that dogs do not have a concept of "fairness"...which may seem true to humans. I *do* have a concept of fairness, so I don't allow any of my pups (older, or puppy) to bully or take advantage of the others. I don't allow the older guys to take treats/food from the puppy...nor do I allow the puppy to steal treats from the older guys (I see that happening more often!!) Otherwise, I let the dynamics work out...if the puppy is annoying the older pup, the older pup will usually take care of things. If things get too rough, I intervene; but normally, things sound much worse than they actually are. Arlo has decided Maggie's tail and ears are great places to bite and hang on to...Maggie takes it for a while, then gives a good, low, menacing growl, and Arlo stops. Good girl, Maggie!! If Maggie or Jazz get too rough with Arlo, the other dog intervenes and protects Arlo. Fascinating! Arlo is a humper...when he starts humping the other guys, they normally stop it in their own way...but that's one annoying habit I don't allow either. So far, a stern "OFF" from me gets him to stop humping the big guys. I simply don't like that form of dominance, and don't allow it.
3) The dynamics may change in the future. Jazz was a VERY dominant dog, but I've noticed in the past few months that Maggie is exerting more of a dominant position in the doggy pack. I did the same thing as you...feeding the older dog first, letting the older dog out the door first, separate attention, etc...but they have worked out the dynamics, and Jazz has relinquished his "alpha" role to Maggie...which they all seem comfortable with. Above all else, both of your pups MUST respect YOU as their leader. Whatever dynamics they work out in the future, they both must acknowledge that you are the ultimate leader, and the one who protects them and they need to trust. I like to think of myself as the benevolent dictator...all good things come from me, but I'm ultimately in control of everything that goes on around here. Hopefully, that will continue!!
(Arlo is a maniac!!)
Have fun with the new pup!! Kimber sounds like a wonderful and FUN puppy!!! Pics, please!

[tandemchick]

Espinay, the article you linked to was a fascinating read and makes total sense. After reading it I watched Tiny's body language more closely (I tend to watch his body language anyway after going through heart worm treatment, since he isn't a yelper or whiner or one to vocally show pain), and he just seems a little annoyed. That's understandable--Kimber's a super happy, bouncy puppy who's also just relentless. I'm a human and even I can only take so much, I can only imagine how that must be for a dog. She does have a tendency to bite and chew right now, which we knew would be an issue going into this, and we're working to teach her bite inhibition.

Last night was much better, far fewer growls than the past couple of days. She seems to be getting the hint that it's ok to follow him if she stays about two to three feet away, but every now and then she'll still bounce up to him a little too fast and he'll give her a quick growl. He let her sit right by his back flank a few times last night, and at one point she was even trying to catch his tail and he didn't growl at her. He hasn't snapped at her at all, and accidentally stepped on her yesterday morning, which freaked him out a little bit (she was perfectly fine and bounced right back up). This morning he just wanted away from her--I think the whining's getting to him as much as it is to me.

[tandemchick]

Quick update: Apparently something happened at some point last night, because one minute Tiny was avoiding Kimber and still shooing her away, and then the next he was in play stance and chasing her around the back yard. It was amazing to watch, like some sort of switch just flipped for him all of a sudden (or maybe it was for her). While they were playing/chasing each other, if she got too close or tried to bite him, he would just take his nose and roll her over. She's also figured out that Tiny's crate is his crate, and will get about four inches away from it before stopping. But she stops, which is much better than she was doing (she's a puppy, she's curious and she's still learning the rules). Granted, this morning he was back to growling at her, but he isn't a morning dog, so I'm not surprised at all. We're very happy, though, that Tiny seems to be accepting her, and that Kimber seems to be figuring out the rules.

[nick's spirit]

thanks for the update, sounds like Tiny is teaching Kimber some very valuable lessons in proper manners!!
Time, patience, humor, patience, care, patience!!!