dew claws question

[Gizmo's mom]

so i have noticed several people on here mention the double dew claws on the back feet. do you have these removed? or is it usually better to leave them attached? from what ive been told, shelties have the double dew claws as well, but breeders almost always have them removed at just a few days old. what are the pros and cons of leaving them vs having them removed?

[Jewel]

Double dewclaws is a breed trait for the great pyrenees. As a breed, they are supposed to have them. Though some purebred pyrs are born without the double dewclaws, similar to how some rhodesian ridgebacks are born without the ridge, those without double dews should be the minority. It is a serious fault from a breed standard point of view if a pyr doesn't have double dews. Thus a show breeder is not likely to breed dogs without double dews. Breeders of LGDs on the other hand may not pay as much attention to the double dew requirement as it is far more important that the dog is a good LGD.

It is common practice with sporting and herding breeds to remove dewclaws very soon after the birth of a puppy. But it is not so with the pyrs. Because the double dews is an important breed trait, indeed it helps to distinguish the pyrs from several other white LGD breeds, they are usually not removed regardless of whether the dog is a show dog or a pet. The double dews on pyrs are attached more firmly than other breeds and surgery is needed to remove them.

For me part of the pyr's identity is their double dewclaws, and so it is a part of the dog. Removing the double dews to me would be akin to docking a pyr's tail - one just doesn't do that. That is not to say that accidents with the dewclaws never happen, but I've personally never had an issue with my dogs' double dews and I have not heard horror stories from my breeder or my friends who are long time pyr owners.

[imaginarium]

Originally Posted by Jewel

For me part of the pyr's identity is their double dewclaws, and so it is a part of the dog. Removing the double dews to me would be akin to docking a pyr's tail - one just doesn't do that.

Couldn't agree more! My groomer friends all threw fits when I refused to remove Remy's back dews because they felt they looked "ugly." I told them they were being awfully judgemental for a bunch of people that regularly complain about people who shave their golden retrievers because they know they're long haired when they buy them. I bought a pyr cause I love pyrs, and fully accept that being owned by one includes the double dews, the endlessly shedding white hair, and the drool.

[Davey Benson]

I compaire it to buying a unicorn, and then removing it's horn.....

[Chicag0_Red]

Removing the Dewclaws is the equivelant of chopping your toe off. You can function without it quiet well.

In their natural environs they serve a purpose and to remove them for looks strikes me as subjecting the animal to needless pain.

[Lou Lou]

I do see why dews are removed and tails are docked on sporting/herding breeds since they can cause nasty injuries down the line and the healing process can be quite tedious with frequent reinjury.

However, with the Pyrs, like Jewel has mentioned, the foot structure is different as is that of the structure of the dews themselves.

I've scrounged up x-rays of a Pyr's hind dews as opposed to, I believe it's mixed breeds used in a dewclaw genome study.



So we're looking at hind right and hind left, the two bottom pictures. HR and HL are two different dogs. Look how the dew sits out there, particularly the single dew on HL. You can imagine how easily that would be injured as the potential for it being bent backward is large. It could easily be injured trampling through brush or coming through a hard crust of snow forcing the dew upwards unnaturally.

So below is going to be our Pyr hind.



Looking closely to the lefthand side you are going to see the more faint bone structure of the double dews. See how much more firm to the leg the bone sits? And the dews come separate off that bone almost at a perpendicular angle.

I have to say I've definitely seen Ralph use his on steep inclines. At camp coming up hillsides on awkward angles he seems to almost put actual weight on them for more sure footing.

I know it's anecdotal but like Jewel said, the first breeder we talked to (breeding since the 70's) has never had a dew injury and her dogs lived outdoors primarily. Ralph's breeder has never had a dew injury that I've heard of in 30+ years of breeding and was adamant they be left intact, I see now with good reason.

So I totally understand the concern/why the heck do ya leave 'em on? (LOL) kind of thought process as coming from breeds who have them regularly removed to prevent injury.

FWIW we went to an emergency vet (not our normal vet) once when Ralph was a pup after a pretty violent diarrhea episode. This young vet was so perplexed with Ralph's dews that I had to finally say, "They're double dews.. Breed trait." We got an, "Oh.. I've never seen that before.. Pretty sturdy."

[Jewel]

Interestingly just a few days ago I was chatting with an agility friend, and she mentioned that it has been noticed that some agility dogs use their back dewclaws (those that still have them, that is) to grip or balance as they tear through the obstacles. I've never noticed Bijou doing that, but then she doesn't exactly tear through the course at the speed the herding dogs do.

[Gizmo's mom]

thanks for all of the info! glad i asked! like i said, it was more just out of curiosity. i know with shelties that have the double dew claws, sometimes they are attached, other times they are detached. so if they are detached its just a matter of clipping them after some numbing i think. but if they are attached then it requires surgery.

[naholmes]

Sometimes I worry about Duke ripping his dew claws - they look so delicate and floppy. My vet asked me if I wanted them removed while he was out and being neutered but I decided not to. Living in the house and a big back yard or out with me on a leash there's not alot of opportunity for them to be injured. so the score is = Dews Claws - 1 furry coat - 0. lol.

[Espinay]

Originally Posted by Jewel

Interestingly just a few days ago I was chatting with an agility friend, and she mentioned that it has been noticed that some agility dogs use their back dewclaws (those that still have them, that is) to grip or balance as they tear through the obstacles. I've never noticed Bijou doing that, but then she doesn't exactly tear through the course at the speed the herding dogs do.

Interesting too that many serious agility folk do not remove dew claws as they provide added stability.

I love the comment about the unicorns horn. That is exactly how it feels like to me. It is a breed feature that makes them special and removing them just wouldnt be 'right'.