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  1. #1
    Young Dawg (Member)

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    Default Intense resource guarding stolen objects

    Default: Resource guarding stolen objects

    I just saw a post from Megdc written in 2014, she was describing the same problem we have with our 5 months old pure breed puppy, she wrote the following:


    'Max is making me worry, since early summer he has been stealing things and wont give them back. He steals anything he can get a hold of, my phone, socks, hats, garbage, his leash, dishes, and anything and everything else he can manage to get a hold of. I have everything put up as much as possible, I mean my house is spotless. But as life goes on eventually something ends up within his reach and he takes it as soon as the opportunity arises. If I get anywhere near him while he has it he will hold really still and growl and if I get to close he will snarl and snap at me and try to hit me with his paw. If I try to trade him he will happily take whatever I have but if he sees me try to pick up the object after he has dropped it (whether I have given him his treat yet or not) then he will growl and go after it so fast that I am afraid he will accidentally bite me if we both go for it at the same time. Now he has plenty of his own things to chew on and play with and he is starting to do it with his toys and his bully sticks and cow ears too. I think its strange though he doesn't do it with his food but he will with his empty bowl. I have figured out that if I get him to come away from whatever he has and give him a chewy treat and put him in his crate, then I can get the object after he is in there. But I am afraid that someone will come over and he will take something of there's and they will quickly try to take it away and end up getting bit. Or worse it will be a child. So now I have gated off half of the house so that he is seperated from my son and other people just in case, also so that he is less likely to end up with something he shouldn't. But I dont like him being seperated, I want him to be part of the family. I have tried practicing trading things with him with things he doesn't see as high value and that doesn't work because then he knows I have treats and doesn't care about the object at all. If I try to practice with a high value object then he gets stressed and things escalate very quickly so I dont feel comfortable doing that. I have read the book "mine" and followed the advice in that book and it has not helped. I had him neutered last June (the behavior started before the surgery) and he is 20 months old now. I have been researching differant behaviorist in my area and cant find any with a "behaviorist" title they all call themselves trainers. I have emailed and called a couple of them and have not heard back. Meanwhile I feel like he is getting worse. He is an angel in every other way, he goes on walks beautifully and is friendly to strangers and other dogs. He is very loving and sweet and listens as good as can be expected except for when he has something. He doesn't have bad behavior with his toys all the time, he seems to pick and choose when he wants to let you play with him with his toys or not. But he ALWAYS guards stolen objects. He gets daily exercise and attention. I dont know where I've gone wrong. I dont know if it could be a health thing, I plan to take him to the vet again. He does still have that bad skin condition pretty much all the time. I dont know what to do. I love him so much but I cant have him if I am afraid for my family's safety. Sorry this is so long. This whole thing has been such a rollercoaster ever since we got him with all his health issues and I just dont know what to do.'


    My puppy was already neutered when we got him at 8 weeks old. The first day we had it he acted weird, example, he went for the water pipe under the toilet reservoir and licked it without stopping even if he had plenty of water to dring in his bowl, when my wife tried to remove him from there he exploded, turn around and bit her. He does not have any other problems, get walked at least 3 times a day, but his resource guarding is scary. We saw a reknown (here in Montreal) certified dog trainer and he showed us what to do (trading, read the Mine manual, sent us video of Mr Patel, etc...) but to the question I asked him 'what do you do when he pick up something like a broken piece of glass we dropped by accident on the floor to prevent him to get cut, (there is no time to play trading here...) he responded to me do you have extra glasses you could practice in the garage to desensibilise him? ..... I saw right there there was not much we could do with that dog. From your experience, are breeders supposed to take the dog back when there is such what seem to be a heriditary taint ? He is 52 lbs now and and he has bitten all 4 of us in the familly, my sons are 25 and 22, no kids around (I would be too scared he would be around kids). I tried to reach Megdc via private message, but no response from her, I guess she got rid of Max.


    Thanks for your help

  2. #2
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) nick's spirit's Avatar

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    trousky....this is not normal behavior from a puppy...

    I also once had a male that was sent to me from a breeder already neutered at 8 weeks old...he was one of the mellowest Pyrenees I have ever had...

    Yes, get in touch with your breeder. There should have been a statement in your purchase agreement that the dog be return to the breeder if needed.

    Please let us know whatever happens...so sorry to read of this behavior in one so young

    Nancy & Rudy

  3. #3
    Young Dawg (Member)

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    Default

    Nancy and Rudy, thank you for the reply. The contract stipulate there is no warranty on behavior. We returned the dog since the contract also mention we have to in case we can not keep it for whatever reason. They offered us a replacement but we have to pay for CKC registration, vaccines, micro chip.... It is our first great pyr, it is too bad, he was so cute. Apparently they will have him evaluate and they will let us know what's wrong with it. We had different breed before (german sheppard, bouvier des flandres, bernese montain (this last one passed away last october and he was such a nice dog, we would not find one like him that is why my wife decide to get a great pyrenee...). One think I noticed is it is also the first time we buy a dog that is not coming from a family type of breeder...Should'nt the breeder have noticed this behavior ? Maybe it is too big to know what is going on with the dogs....

  4. #4
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) nick's spirit's Avatar

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    trousky....I am glad that the breeder actually took the pup back & is going to have it evaluated....it is not unusual that the breeder does not return any expenses paid, including the purchase of the dog...it really depends on the contract....

    at 8 weeks old, I am not sure how much personality can actually be noticed....I have had friends who purchased the Polish version of a Pyrenees...and as he aged his temper got worse & worse...not allowing the family children to get into their car when being picked up from school...and eventually pinning one of the daughters to the floor with his teeth on her neck...he was not yet a year old when this happened...and was a very powerful dog.

    So letting this guy go back to his breeder is a safe thing for you & your family....Bouviers can be intimidating, as can Shepherds (but both breeds can be so loyal to their families)...and unfortunately Berners don't seem to have longevity....maybe going back to one of those breeders would be best for you....or....have you thought of a Leonberger (it sounds like you like large dogs)

    Since you are in Quebec....perhaps a Newfie!?!!

  5. #5
    Young Dawg (Member)

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    Thanks for the suggestions, since you mention the polish version of the dog, after doing a lot of research, at a point I thought we have been given a Kuvaz, but no it was a real great pyr. Newfie nah, they drool too much....however Leonberg, yes good idea, I forgot about those, I will look into it more deeply. Thanks again !

  6. #6
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Jewel's Avatar

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    It's very unfortunate that your first pyr experience didn't turn out well. I can understand you are not happy with the breeder. But I would note that the fact that your breeder (1) has a contract to begin with (2) the contract contains the provision that requires you to return the dog to them if you cannot keep it for any reason, and (3) that they offered a replacement puppy, suggest they seem more responsible than many people who sell puppies.

    Not sure what you mean by a "family type breeder." But I note that there are lots of families who get a pair of dogs and just breed them to sell puppies without conducting health tests or confirmed temperaments and result in stories that not do not end in happily ever after.


    Hopefully your next pup will work out much better.

  7. #7
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) SebastiansMom's Avatar

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    I, too, am so sorry that your first Pyr experience was a bad one. Like Nick’s Spirit and Jewel have said, resource guarding that severe starting in a pup so young is, by no means, normal for the breed - or normal for any puppy of any breed, for that matter.

    I definitely understand why your breeder doesn’t include behavior in her health guarantee. Behavioral issues are often very complex, and can be rooted in both genetic and environmental issues. From the sounds of it, there was almost definitely a genetic component to the puppy’s behavior. If I had been the breeder, I probably would have made an exception for your pup.

    With that having been said, it sounds like your puppy’s breeder is breeding responsibly. I do believe that she honestly had no idea that the puppy had any issues when she sold him to you. Behavior changes according to age and environment. My dogs now are not the same dogs they were three years ago.

    Please know that behavioral issues occur in every breed. My dogs see a veterinarian who specializes in behavior cases, and she once to;d me that she sees a disproportionately high number of goldendoodles. No matter what breed you choose once you’re ready to open your hearts and home to a new puppy,the best advice I can give is to ask to meet BOTH parents, and see where the puppies have been raised. If the breeder isn’t willing to cooperate, that is a giant red flag. If you meet the puppies’ parents and they aren’t friendly, the puppies are at an increased risk of inheriting temperament issues.
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  8. #8
    Young Dawg (Member)

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    Default

    Thank you all, that is good information. Regarding parents, the first time my wife asked who they were, she did not get a response. When we went to get the puppy she asked again and was shown very fast the mother in her run and the father in his run, they looked ok to us... Puppies were all by themselves in another run...... That bring me to the question how can you be sure these are the real parents ? On the contract only parents name are listed, the rest of the family tree papers would follow within the next 6 months..... When I see about 14 runs
    with one dog in each, for me it is not family kind of breed....

  9. #9
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Jewel's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by trousky View Post
    When we went to get the puppy she asked again and was shown very fast the mother in her run and the father in his run, they looked ok to us... Puppies were all by themselves in another run...... When I see about 14 runs with one dog in each, for me it is not family kind of breed....
    I just want to say that it's not really about how the breeder's kennel set up is like but rather what the breeding stock is like.

    My breeder has kennel runs where many of her dogs live. I went to visit the breeder to check her place out before I committed to a pup. Her dog runs were very clean and the dogs looked in good shape and athletic. I met Bijou's mom and I could see her dad in his run. I also saw the grandpa, met the great uncle and I am sure I saw several other close relatives.

    Ren is our second dog from this breeder. We are pleased with his personality as well as with his aunt we had before him.

  10. #10
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) SebastiansMom's Avatar

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    The breeder’s kennel setup doesn’t sound unreasonable at all to me. So long as the kennels were all clean, and the dogs all appeared to be healthy, cared for, and reasonably well-behaved (not snarling and trying to break out of kennels to bite people). I have to say that I would much rather see 14 kennels with one dog in each than one kennel with 14 dogs. To me, the kennel setup shows that the breeder practices good management of her dogs, which is essential when keeping so many intact dogs who are part of a selective breeding program.

    Truthfully, it doesn’t sound to me like the breeder was trying to trick you into buying a puppy with a bad temperament. There are plenty of those types of breeders out there, and they typically don’t take their puppies back.

    Breeding dogs is as much an art as it is a science, as it is so inexact. Genetic traits that lie seemingly dormant for generations can and do reappear randomly. Genetic recombination is, in its very nature, a random process. Even the best breeders sometimes have the occasional puppy with unexpected traits.

    As heartbreaking as it is, I really think that’s what happened in this case. It doesn’t sound so much like the breeder was setting out to defraud you, as it sounds like this puppy was the unlucky recipient of long-dormant genes that caused this behavior, and that you were then the unlucky family that had to endure the heartbreak that came with the expression of those genes.

    It really does sound like both you and your breeder did a lot of things right. I can’t tell you how sorry I am to hear that the outcome of your situation didn’t reflect that.
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