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  1. #11
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Tessy's Avatar

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    See newest post. Thank you.
    Last edited by Tessy; 08-05-2017 at 01:41 PM.
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  2. #12
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Tsunibear's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tessy View Post
    Hi,

    If you are going to let go of Duke, then I would advise you as well to take him to a pyr rescue...if he is aggressive towards strangers, cats, and other animals, then he should not become a livestock guardian.


    But, if you end up deciding to try to deal with his aggression, then I would suggest this: keep Duke outside to live (with a dog house and fence) (and if he digs, chicken wire on the ground next to the fence), I would make sure that your son does not go out to see Duke alone, this way you can keep your family safe as well as keeping Duke with you. Then I would gradually and carefully try to work on his behaviors (while he is outside). There is no rush to fix his aggression, as long as you can keep him outside where he can't get to you, your family, or others, then you can take as long as he needs. But certainly, the worst thing that you can do to a dog is punishment, because dogs are animals and they do not have to obey you, they choose to obey.

    If I was in your place, I would try to keep him. In the past, before we got a pyr, we had a lab for a short while, because of health and behavioral problems, we had to take her back to the shelter. It was very sad and hard to let her go. I would try to determine why Duke is acting like this, sometimes you may think it is one thing, when it is actually a totally different thing, but as I wrote above, there is no rush.

    Let us know what you plan to do. I hope you decide to keep him.
    I am going to break this down into colors okay?
    This I agree with, which is why it's green means go.

    Red means no. I am sorry but, you are giving this family horrible advice. This is a young adult dog who hasn't come into his full blown personality and this is also a dog who probably weighs about 100 lbs. Locking him up outside isn't going to help at all, it's just going to further frustrate him because, he is locked up. Let me tell you right now in all of my years of working with animals a frustrated dog is a dog whose on the verge of breaking which can go as acting up or worst case biting. As someone whose been bit by a large dog before that's not something I would wish onto this family. I read dog body language everyday so I knew when to move and my hand still got jacked up to the point that it swelled twice it's size and I still suffer from nerve damage. So no locking Duke up is a horrible idea, probably one of the worst ones given yet. Yes he should be in a fenced yard for his safety, but outside all the time and not socialized with, no. What's to stop him from deciding to defend his kennel? If he does that how do you propose they feed him? Just throw some food over the cage? He needs professional help from someone who knows the breed and a real behaviorist and not someone who claims they are one just so they can charge an arm and a leg. Preferably one that can prescribe meds to help balance him out. Your advice isn't what's best for this family or Duke at all in my professional opinion. Your way is how local farmers handle their Pyrs and you know how that works out? Time for the vet toss him a hamburger with a sedative in it so the vet can give him a shot, because that's the only way anyone is getting near that dog when handled that way.

    This blue statement enrages me. I am sorry, but that's a load of crap. My dog doesn't choose to obey me, she obeys me because, if she doesn't there will be hell to pay and I am not talking physical hell. I am talking she no longer gets treats, toys or the privilege to go bye bye with me. We are a team and she knows that if she doesn't want to participate in the team games then she sits it out. Dogs need guidance and direction they aren't wolves. Most dogs cannot survive without their owners, because they aren't built to. They are built to be with people and do as asked and I don't like hearing "Well it's a Pyr so it's up to them if they listen." No not the case if you put the time and effort into working with your dog, bonding with it, training it and molding it into the dog you want it to become it will do that or get as close to it as possible. Don't believe me look at Missy she is CGC certified and can be off leash without fear of running and she comes when called in public, but I still know her limits and respect them. Is she perfect no, not at all she is getting short on patients as she ages, but that doesn't mean she is allowed to ignore me and not listen. I can put her in a down stay outside and then walk back inside go to the bathroom and come back and she won't have moved at all. Every dog is trainable you just have to find what works for that dog and then adjust your expectations. Your belief just gives the dog a get out of jail free card because, it's a dog and that's not okay.

    Let me just say I am sorry if I offended anyone or if you feel attacked, but when it comes to a families safety and a dogs safety it's time to be blunt.

  3. #13
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) SebastiansMom's Avatar

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    Actually, I wholly disagree with the "there is no rush" statement. Time really is of the essence, here, for a number of reasons.

    Every minute Duke spends languishing in that back yard is a minute Duke spends languishing in misery. Duke does not want to behave this way any more than his family wants him to behave this way. This behavior isn't just indicative of a dog who needs to go to an obedience class at the town Petsmart, this behavior is indicative of a dog who is miserable - quite possibly to the point of being mentally ill. The longer he is allowed to exist this way without access to the resources he needs to get better, the more intractable his behavioral problems will become.

    Every minute Duke spends languishing in that yard is also a minute which Duke is a liability - both to himself and his family. I don't know what the dog bite laws are in Washington State, but if Duke's family intends on keeping him, they'd better study up and have a lawyer on speed dial. If he does land a reportable bite, they'd better hope he does so before his rabies vaccination expires - if it hasn't already. If they can't prove that he is current on his rabies vaccine and he bites someone, he will have to be destroyed so that he can be tested for rabies. Remember, this dog is so out of control that he can't go to the vet without a muzzle, and he's so out of control that his family can't put a collar on him, much less a muzzle. It's also worth noting that if he lands a reportable bite serious enough for the victim to require medical attention, Duke's family could be held financially and possibly criminally responsible for Duke's actions - particularly since it can be ascertained that they are aware that he poses a risk to the safety of others.

    Like I touched on before, Duke is still a puppy, which makes this case all the more disturbing. Yes, he's an adolescent, and yes, some bratty, rebellious, and even defiant behavior is to be expected during the adolescent phase, but bratty, rebellious, and defiant are a far cry from out-of-control aggression. Emotionally healthy adolescent Pyrs are typically more socially tolerant than their grown-up counterparts with fully-formed adult personalities. A good many of us noticed a sudden change in our dogs' personalities somewhere around the age of 2 - 2 1/2. Sebastian became more territorial and far less tolerant of other dogs at this age. Considering the amount of time it is going to take to assess and treat Duke, there really isn't much time at all. I estimated before maybe 6-12 months before he grows into his adult personality. In terms of training and behavior modification, that's really not a lot of time at all.

    Duke is a danger to himself and others. He is a danger to the neighbors, he is a danger to any innocent unsuspecting person who may happen onto his property, and he is a danger to his family - including the seven year old boy to whom he has already shown aggressive behavior. Not a single one of us is suggesting that Duke's family take him to the shelter - truth be told, if the OP is accurate in his statements, Duke would be euth'd for temperament. So, Tessy, please don't let your guilt over your lab cloud your judgement here. Your guilt isn't going to save this dog, nor will it prevent him from hurting or killing someone.
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  4. #14
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Tessy's Avatar

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    See newest post. Thank you.
    Owned by Tessy (3 Yrs.) & Magnus (1.5 Yrs.)

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  5. #15
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) SebastiansMom's Avatar

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    Nobody is suggesting that they spend "thousands" on a Behaviorist, Tessy. They don't cost that much. Hundreds, yes, but that is too expensive for this family. Maybe you were thrown off by me mentioning that I had spent thousands on my Chester. I spent thousands on trainer-type behaviorists with little to no scientific background. That is why I always recommend that people forego those type trainers and go straight to hiring either a board-certified Veterinary Behaviorist or a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist. I'm trying to save them a lot of money, frustration, and heartbreak by getting them to the people that can actually HELP them.

    Now, if you had paid attention to the thread, you would have taken note of the fact that the OP had already decided that he had spent enough money on this dog and THAT's when we started trying to convince him to turn the dog over to rescue. That wasn't to get some hapless rescue to spend a ton of money on this animal, either. It was to get the dog into a new environment where he wasn't constantly being triggered by whatever it is that is triggering him. It was also to get him into an experienced foster home where he could learn how to trust. If he needed a Behaviorist in that setting, many provide their services to rescues at deeply discounted rates.

    No, these people do not have suits of armor to protect them from dog bites, but they do have Science, and Science goes a long way in predicting and preventing aggressive behavior. I've used Science with my two, and it's akin to magic, but with peer-reviewed, repeatable results. 10/10. Would highly recommend.

    My point about him being an adult dog soon isn't that he can't be trained, it's that he's about to become even more dangerous than he is right now. He's frighteningly dangerous right now, and that's when you don't take into account that THERE IS A SEVEN YEAR OLD BOY LIVING ON THE PROPERTY WITH HIM. If you didn't read the article about the dead child I linked to, now might be a good time. If you think that Pyrs don't attack children, I will find you articles about Pyrs attacking kids. I promise. There's one I can think of that happened in Waco about four years ago. Pyr who was kept outside in a yard by himself attacked a one year old relative who chased after a toy and got too close to the dog's enclosure. Thankfully, in that case, the child lived.

    Our breed is at a crossroads right now due to overbreeding and irresponsible ownership. We are dangerously close to becoming the next pit bull. There is nothing wrong with the pit bull as a breed group. They were developed for a purpose, and they serve that purpose. People are what is wrong with the pit bull - people on both extremes of the argument. There are the idiots who think that they have magical locking jaws that make them far more dangerous than any other breed in the history of the domestic dog, and the equally dangerous morons who post pictures of them in pajamas and think that because their dog is sweet every ittie bittie pittie on the face of the earth is a sweet cuddly little teddy bear. The reality lies somewhere in the middle, and holds true for each and every breed. EVERY DOG, NO MATTER WHICH BREED HE OR SHE IS, MUST BE OWNED RESPONSIBLY. KEEPING A HUMAN-AGGRESSIVE DOG OUTDOORS IN ANY AREA WHERE HE COULD POTENTIALLY ESCAPE IS BOTH IRRESPONSIBLE AND CRUEL. We owe it to ourselves, to our neighbors, and to our breed to be better.
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  6. #16
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Tessy's Avatar

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    Thank you for clearing up the behaviorist thing. I now understand what you mean. I know that any dog can attack anyone. I also did read the article you posted. I did see that this family said they spent enough on it. That is why I suggested setting up a fundraiser. I have stricken my previous post from the record here, because I did not think it through fully...I am sorry for that.

    My new suggestion is to set up a fundraiser so that you can get a certified behaviorist, so that you can keep your dog. I would be one of the first to contribute.

    Sorry for my mistaken ideas.

    Thank You Sebastian's Mom for clearing up things that I did not understand.

    P.S. If Dcombs, you decide to set up a fundraiser, please let us know so that we can contribute.
    Owned by Tessy (3 Yrs.) & Magnus (1.5 Yrs.)

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  7. #17
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Jewel's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tessy View Post
    Does a behaviorist have body armor to protect themselves against bites?

    I was simply trying to find a way that they could keep him, work on his behavior safely, and not have to spend a fortune. Perhaps I was wrong there, and I am sorry if I was.
    I understand you are trying to be helpful to a terrible situation, but the problem is, if you've never dealt with a dog in a similar situation, you really don't know the risks involved. I've had the experience of dealing with displacement aggression similar to what Duke is exhibiting and I have scars to show for it. I have beautiful pictures of my legs in shades of green, blue and grey accented with burgundy puncture wounds. The pyr I was working with did not have human aggression; he was leash reactive. He did not mean to bite ME, he was just riled up in the moment because he couldn't get at a dog.

    I am by no means inexperienced with dogs. I am also an experienced pyr owner. I knew of this pyr's leash reactivity and I was assessing his tolerance threshold when he got me on my legs 3 times. I wasn't told about the displacement aggression. But that was probably because no one ever worked on his leash reactivity issue before I got him so no one knew he had displacement aggression. Once I figured out his tolerance threshold I was able to avoid further bites by not letting him to get to the "red zone" reactivity level. He didn't scare me because I have knowledge and experience to deal with the issue.

    The thing is, Duke's family doesn't know why he's become the scary animal he is. If they don't know how Duke became this way, they would not know how to go about fixing it. They've admitted as much. The biggest issue is they are scared of him. If one is scared of the animal one is working with, that is pretty much setting the whole thing up for failure. It's one thing if we are talking about just annoying behavior - peeing in the house, counter surfing, or even just dog reactivity. But here we are talking about human aggression - with a child involved no less. This is the most dangerous situation to deal with; one that cannot be down played when a child is involved.

    Some years ago someone came on the forums asking for advise on her 5 month-old pyr puppy "nibbling" on her young son. At least that was what she posted at first. Then in following posts, the puppy progressed to pushing the boy down and then "nibbling" on him. The mother was advised that the puppy should be separated from the boy unless she was right there with them. Even if it was just normal puppy play, the puppy couldn't be using her son as a playmate. Well, a week later, the mother let the puppy and the son out together in the backyard and she claimed she was standing a few feet away from the pup - but she never said she was standing between the pup and the boy. The pup went for her son, pushed him down and bit down on his neck. Ambulance and police had to be called and the pup was destroyed immediately. The boy was ok but likely scarred for life. THIS is a reason many of us don't give advise on how to fix human aggression problems. We are limited only to the few words posted on the internet. There is much to much to risk if the wrong advise is given, or even if the correct advise is given, there is no way to know if the person is able to implement it properly.

    This is why the recommendation of getting professional is usually given, and if the family isn't able to work with a competent professional then it is best to give the dog up to someone who is more equipped to handle - for the safety of all involved.

  8. #18
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Tessy's Avatar

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    Thank you, Jewel, for letting me know. I am far from experienced in any dog related field. You are right, I have never been in this situation. The only pain an animal has ever given me was a horse who wanted grass so bad that she stepped right on my foot. I bow to your experience and I acknowledge that I was wrong in my advise. Thus my revised post at 12:40 today. I am sorry for giving advise for something that I have totally no experience with.

    Respectfully,

    Tessy
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  9. #19
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Antonia's Avatar

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    I have no other advice to offer other than what's been said already. In a situation with a child of this age, I would not hesitate to place the dog with a rescue where he might be able to be helped and the child would be safe. It especially concerns me that the child loves the dog so much... A seven year old in love with their dog is not going to make good choices or comprehend the danger the dog presents to them. Years ago I watched my six year old sister take a terrible bite to the face. She nearly lost an eye and carries scars on her face to this day. The situation should never have happened but she was in love with the dog (a Golden) and did not have the ability to see the dog in any way other than through the feelings that she herself had. Duke deserves a chance to get help and hopefully have a better future and despite the pain of the loss, it is preferable to the pain and trauma should Duke hurt his boy...

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