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  1. #1
    Young Dawg (Member)

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    Default Do I possibly NOT have a "pure" bred?(dew claw concern)

    Hello all I'm new to the forum however am not a new pyr owner. I'm not the most knowledgeable person but I do know a great deal about pyrs having already had my 1st pyr Brutus for a little over 2 years now and having researched a lot over that time and falling in love with the breed....

    Now again I'm not the MOST knowledgeable but I do know purebred pyrs are "supposed" to have the double dewclaws. Now Brutus, I know for a fact is purepred, having known the parents(also purebreds) and also HAS the double dew claws. However yesterday I was given another male Pyr(5 years old) due to a family relocating out of state. Now prior to me actually seeing the new pyr in person I asked the previous owners if he was full-blooded pyr and they said yes having him since he was a pup(and now 5 years old). I had only seen pics via text message but to me definitely looks like a purebred pyr to me.

    However, yesterday I picked him up in person and immediately checked and noticed the new Pyr(Gunner) DID NOT have the double dew claws. The owner seemed to not know much about it, however it did not keep me from taking the dog. My concern is Gunner looks, acts, has the same temperment and pyr features including the tail, etc is exactly like Brutus(minus the dewclaws) so I know he's a pyr just wondering if purebred as I was told because I just can't get away from the fact he doesn't have the double dewclaws.

    Overall Brutus(my 1st pyr) is definitely whiter, has the double dew claws. Brutus only has a very small area on his head behind his ears that is slightly yellowish/tan) but other than that extremely white. Gunner(new pyr) is a lot more tannish than Brutus. Now in Gunner's defense I have heard older pyrs coats tend to get yellowish over the years and Gunner is slightly older than Brutus and the previous owners did not keep him groomed as well as I do Brutus, so I don't know if that helps one determine as well, just throwing that out there.

    Below comparisons
    Picture 1: Gunner(pyr in question) is shown just to the right of Brutus(who again is 100% purebred)
    Picture 2: Gunner is shown close up at the bottom of the pic
    Picture 3: Gunner is shown to the left and obviously less white in color




    So again just wondering if I have a mix. Again keep in mind Gunner's coat is not as long and fluffy as Brutus due to him not being take care of as much, his coat is still less white and tan looking, and most importantly does not have the double dews

  2. #2
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Davey Benson's Avatar

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    sometimes vets will remove them.

    also it is possible for a pure bred to not have them, and in those instance it's considered a genetic flaw in that particular dog. (like not having the black eyeliner, or black nose)
    Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx

  3. #3
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Tsunibear's Avatar

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    It is still very possible that he is a purebred. Like Davey said some people remove the dews even though the breed should have them some vets will still remove them upon request. Just like sometimes a Pyr can be born without the dews. It isn't a desirable feature so that dog wouldn't show status but, it happens. As for the coloring some dogs coats stain if not taken care of properly. In time that yellow look can and usually will go away.

  4. #4
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) MiyasMomma's Avatar

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    I've seen a whitening shampoo, have to ask Tsunibear if she's seen it and if it works.

    We got our Gabe from a rescue when he was 2 and they had his double dews removed!

    Looks like you have two handsome boys there.
    Miya's Momma

    Because a home isn't a home without a dog.


  5. #5
    Young Dawg (Member)

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    Thanks for all the quick replies everyone that helps a lot. yes they are both very pretty.

    I guess I will have to talk again with the previous owners more(luckily I still have their contact info). When I picked him up, I only met with the husband and their kids and he really didn't seem to know anything about the dew claws when I checked but did not mention of them being removed either. Prior to that I had been chatting with the wife when setting the deal up and never really asked her. So I'm going to have to maybe ask if they ever remember them having them removed maybe as a pup. Otherwise I guess it could be genetically which would be rare and just my luck. It's just, I have seen pyr mixes without dew claws but they are obviously mixes and easy giveaways due to having other stand out features unlike pyrs. However in this case Gunner looks exactly like most purebreds I've seen minus the dews.

    Thanks again for those who responded, and I may look into this whitener shampoo I'm hearing of. In the meantime I'm still working on cleaning him up daily from the condition he was given to me in.

  6. #6
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Davey Benson's Avatar

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    Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx

  7. #7
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Jewel's Avatar

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    I was thinking precisely about whether Gunner's dewclaws might have been removed. It is not that uncommon for owners to remove them on the advise of their vet.

    On the other hand, if Gunner was born without the double dews, as the others have said, it is still possible that he could be purebred. But it is also possible that he is a mix. I supposed you can do a DNA test on him, but I am not really sure how accurate the results may be. People who are not truly familiar with the breed could look at a 1/2 pyr and still think it's full blooded if the dog happens to be all white, particularly if the dog is 1/2 pyr and 1/2 another LGD breed. It is also not unusual for a 1/2 pyr to be born with double dews. Thus if you breed that 1/2 pyr with a purebred pyr, and end up with something like a 3/4 pyr, the dog could look exactly like a pyr, with only the missing double dews to indicate it's a mix.

    It is also possible that Gunner may not be a pyr at all. Look up the maremmas dogs. They look pretty much exactly like the pyrs but double dews isn't a breed trait. Maremmas are less well-known and thus people could easily mistaken a maremma for a pyr.

    As for the coat coloring, I agree with Tsuni that Gunner's coat is likely just stained from infrequent baths. My two are bathed at least once a month year round. It is not unusual for Bijou to stand next to another pyr and the other pyr looks yellowish next to her. If Gunner isn't bathed on a regular basis, even if he was bathed right before you picked him up, the one single bath will not make him sparkly white because there is probably a lot more grit that didn't come off. The sparkly white comes with regular grooming, good nutrition and baths. I don't think blueing shampoo is really necessary, more like if you just give him a couple more baths and REALLY work through his coat, and keep up with brushing, his coat color will likely whiten up.

    edit to add: in my avatar pic, the one on the right is a 1/2 pyr, the one the left (with the colored ear) is a purebred pyr.

  8. #8
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Tsunibear's Avatar

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    I am going to say this once and once only. NEVER USE BLEACHING PRODUCTS ON YOUR DOG! If you have to mix it with a developer it is not pet friendly you will burn your dog's coat and possibly even their skin with that. I have never seen a groomer even promote bleaching until I read that article. As a groomer who dyes dogs and likes to read about new techniques and such I have always read the warnings about not bleaching or using dyes that need developers but, I always assumed everyone knew that just because, we humans use them doesn't mean it should be used on dogs. Clearly they put those warnings out there for a reason now.

  9. #9
    Young Dawg (Member)

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    Good info Jewel...

    Also I just got off the phone with the previous owner and she said they NEVER had the dews removed and originally had wondered the same thing, and again they had him since a puppy. So odds are he was born without them...meaning 1 he's a freak of nature to not have them and be purebred or 2 he is in fact a 3/4 mix of some sort.

    They did say when they got Gunner as a pup, both parents were on site and "appeared" to both be purebred pyrs however they didn't check their dewclaws either.

    I'm kind of leaning towards him possibly being a mix. If so, it doesn't change anything but I was really wanting another purebred. And if he is a mix he looks more purebred than ANY other mix I've seen. I mean I have no plans of breeding him or showing him off, but still. As far as the coat, I'm sure it will get better with my grooming. He is still staying as an outside dog as he was previously unlike Brutus so I'm sure the elements have played a part of his coat as well.

    also I did research maremmas dogs and agree they look a lot like pyrs

  10. #10
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Jewel's Avatar

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    The honest truth is if you get a pyr without properly documented papers, even if the dog has double dews and look like a pyr, there is no guarantee that it is a purebred (i.e., could just as possible be a 3/4 pyr with double dews). Our first pyr was a rescue, found at 4 months old walking down a country road all alone. She looked like a pyr, acted like a pyr, did have two sets of double dews, and so we assumed she was a pyr. She was beautiful and a great dog, and it really was irrelevant to us whether she was actually a purebred. In fact, we were told on a number of occasions that she could not have been a pyr because she was "too small to be a pyr". But the number of people who declared she was "too small" was far out numbered by the people that were stopped dead in their tracks when they saw her and who thought that she was "just gorgeous", "spectacular", "magnificent", and one "what an unusually beautiful dog" - without knowing what breed she was.

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