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  1. #21
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) mstricer's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chicag0_Red View Post
    Let me start with this fact ... I have no problem with E-collars ... I even have one that has tone, vibrate, and shock settings on it. It is nothing more than a tool and as such must be used and utilized appropriately to get the desired results.

    For a full grown Pyr the tone option is often the most effective since they will hear it long before the "shock" or vibration is strong enough to distract them from something. Plus with an adult size Pyr keeping the "probes" in contact with the skin gets to be a challenge and the same applies with getting it to vibrate enough for them to feel thru all of that hair. That said the level of "hurt" it causes is totally dependent on the individual animal. Not all "hurt" is physical and "scaring" the pup to get it's attention can lead to undesirable side effects.

    Now that being said ... it sounds like your B/C was bored stupid and was acting out because of it and now you are giving it an outlet for it's energy. Who are you wanting to do fly-ball/agility with; the Pyr or the B/C?

    The size of the breed is immaterial my mini-dachshund doesn't know she is not the same size as Hank. Proper training is based on personality, mental state, and energy level of the individual dog and not the size.

    Last but not least I used the term "liver" to indicate a High Value Treat not necessarily liver. In Hank's case it would be a Pork Rind (fried pork skin) ... if you watch he follows the hand holding the treat and tries to get the treat out several times. It is a common training "trick" to keep the dogs intense focus on you. The dog isn't focusing on his face or body but on the hand holding the treat and his focus switches when the "trainer" switches hands.

    Anyway good luck with your training the big key to these guys is calmness and consistency and remember this breed was bred for thousands of years to not care about you being happy only with you (their flock) being safe.
    As for the small coment on my BC being bored stupid. Isn't the case, we run our dogs with a ball and frisbee every night and walk 3 miles at least 5 days a week. The problem is that he is not social, our fault. My BF treats him like a human, by letting him get away with everything from chewing his stuff up to barking in his face. I've been working with this dog for a long time. If my BF is around, nothing gets through to him. ( I told the.BF if he didn't start leading the dog I was going to put the collar on his neck) yes I did know what you meant be liver, I use those when training him.

  2. #22
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Davey Benson's Avatar

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    dump the bf
    Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx

  3. #23
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) mstricer's Avatar

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    Tried that he found his way home. Lol

  4. #24
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Espinay's Avatar

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    My biggest concern is that you are walking three miles a day with such a young Pyr? While free running exercise, where the pup can easily stop and rest, is excellent, long walks can easily injure growing bones and joints (the growth plates in young Pyrs will not be closed until they are almost 2 years of age and before this a lot of their bones are soft cartilage and easily damaged by repetitive injury or hard knocks). Excessive stress on the bones and joints can lead to developmental growth issues (which may not be obvious to you) and may increase the change of your dog developing joint issues such as hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia or OCD and arthritis.

    When it comes to walking on a lead, put your pup on lead, get a fun toy or treat and encourage your pup in a happy voice to c ome along with you, praising and rewarding it with a game or treat when it does. Make being on the lead with you fun.

    When it comes to teaching a pup not to pull, the best way to do this is right from the beginning, teach them that if the lead is tight, they don't go forward. They only move forward when the lead is loose. If the pup is allowed to pull they learn that by pulling they get where they want to go. this is a viscious circle as the more you pull back and keep the lead tight, they learn they need to pull harder and harder. BUT, if they NEVER get to go when pulling, they learn to keep the lead loose. They learn that pulling doesnt get them anywhere, but a loose lead does, so learn to keep the lead loose themselves. BTW this is VERY easy to teach a pup right from the beginning as they never learn to pull in the first place. Harder to teach once a dog has learnt to pull, because they have to unlearn as well as learn and for a while will actually pull harder as that has always worked for them before (and to them pulling = walking forward as that is actually what they have learnt).
    Espinay Pyrenean Mountain Dogs (Australia) - putting the Breed before breeding

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  5. #25
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) miha engblom's Avatar

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    Espinay when I read trough the articles posted on this homepage I found that you can walk a pup that is older then 3 months old for over an hour... was that bad information ?
    A few times my husband went with the kids and Nanna (age 3 months) for even 2 hours waks in the forest... I guess that was bad...

  6. #26
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) mstricer's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Espinay View Post
    My biggest concern is that you are walking three miles a day with such a young Pyr? While free running exercise, where the pup can easily stop and rest, is excellent, long walks can easily injure growing bones and joints (the growth plates in young Pyrs will not be closed until they are almost 2 years of age and before this a lot of their bones are soft cartilage and easily damaged by repetitive injury or hard knocks). Excessive stress on the bones and joints can lead to developmental growth issues (which may not be obvious to you) and may increase the change of your dog developing joint issues such as hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia or OCD and arthritis.

    When it comes to walking on a lead, put your pup on lead, get a fun toy or treat and encourage your pup in a happy voice to c ome along with you, praising and rewarding it with a game or treat when it does. Make being on the lead with you fun.

    When it comes to teaching a pup not to pull, the best way to do this is right from the beginning, teach them that if the lead is tight, they don't go forward. They only move forward when the lead is loose. If the pup is allowed to pull they learn that by pulling they get where they want to go. this is a viscious circle as the more you pull back and keep the lead tight, they learn they need to pull harder and harder. BUT, if they NEVER get to go when pulling, they learn to keep the lead loose. They learn that pulling doesnt get them anywhere, but a loose lead does, so learn to keep the lead loose themselves. BTW this is VERY easy to teach a pup right from the beginning as they never learn to pull in the first place. Harder to teach once a dog has learnt to pull, because they have to unlearn as well as learn and for a while will actually pull harder as that has always worked for them before (and to them pulling = walking forward as that is actually what they have learnt).
    Just wanted to clarify, the puppy isn't doing the running excerise, just the older 2 dogs play, the 3mile walk is around the block, she isn't tired and just walks nicely now. I feel if you don't walk your puppy has no out let. If Zoe acted like she was tired we would turn around. When we first started we carried her home, now she walks.

  7. #27
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) robinandoso's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mstricer View Post
    Just wanted to clarify, the puppy isn't doing the running excerise, just the older 2 dogs play, the 3mile walk is around the block, she isn't tired and just walks nicely now. I feel if you don't walk your puppy has no out let. If Zoe acted like she was tired we would turn around. When we first started we carried her home, now she walks.
    I think what the others are saying is that 3 miles is really long for a puppy, not that they shouldn't go on walks, and that off-leash activity allows the pup to move at his own pace and self-regulate. While it may not show up in the moment, damage to growing joints is cumulative and can be very painful later in life, and is easily avoiding by waiting until the pup is more grown to go on long walks. Short walks several times a day might be a healthier way to go for now.

    Pyrs, more often than not, can tolerate a lot of pain way before they will ever let you know about it, thus the lack of protesting. That is the concern I hear being expressed by others on the forum regarding the long walks and e-collar.

    I understand that you are feeling frustrated because you feel like you're being judged and not heard, and that's a horrible feeling. But please do understand that everyone here is trying to answer your questions honestly and with a lot of cumulative experience with this breed. And that everyone here is here to support each other, even though tone can sometimes be misread in written form.

    Best of luck and lots of love to you and your pup.

  8. #28
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) TexasKat's Avatar

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    I agree with Robin, we're all trying to help everyone here so they can make the best decisions available and their Pyr can be the best family member possible.

    I have to ask though, how long are your blocks and how long does it take to complete your walks?

    A 'standard' city block is about 1/10th of a mile long. We have a route that covers a mile (previously GPS'd to make sure) and it usually takes 45 minutes to 1 hour to cover that distance.

    Walks for Pyrs are really more patrols than anything, with lots of time to stop and sniff, and stop and visit with neighbors and their pups, etc.

    At Zoe's age (and for a Pyr), I'd say that the length of the walk (in distance) is less important than the opportunity to socialize with as many other people, kids and neighborhood dogs as possible. Your BC may have different needs, so you may have to do a route with Zoe, then drop her back at the house and do another (supplementary) route with your BC.

  9. #29
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Espinay's Avatar

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    Pyrenans continue to grow until around 2 years of age and during this period their growth plates are open and still developing. Me personally I will not even consider 'walking' a Pyr for exercise until well after its first birthday and then only short walks - no hiking (actually if truth be told because I now live on a property, my dogs actually get 'walked' for exercise very rarely - it is all free running - but they do get plenty of time off the property doing other things). To make it clearer what I do and recommend however, here is a slightly edited version of one of my 'puppy pack' handouts that hopefully makes it a bit clearer:


    Exercise and your Puppy

    A very important part of bringing your new Pyrenean puppy up correctly will be to ensure it has the right amount and type of exercise. It is important to remember that the wrong type of exercise can damage growing bones and joints. Growing puppy bones are soft at the ‘growth plates’. Bones grow by forming new soft cartilage which later forms into harder bone (see first picture attached) Damage to these soft parts of the bone may result in bones not growing correctly and can lead or contribute to issues such as Hip and Elbow Dysplasia, Osteochondritis Dessicans (OCD) and later development of arthritis.

    What NOT to Do

    The most damaging forms of exercise for a young Pyrenean are the following:

    Regular use of stairs, in particular running up and down
    Jumping from a height such as out of a vehicle, off a retaining wall or off a bed or furniture.
    Rough play, such as body slamming, blocking or being rolled, particularly with a larger dog.
    Long walks on lead, particularly on hard surfaces such as paths and roadways.

    See second picture attached: The x-ray on the left is a puppy. The arrows are pointing to the growth plates. Compare this to the x-ray on the right, which is the same dog as an adult once the bones have finished growing and the growth plates have closed. A Pyrenean may not stop growing until around 2 years of age so will have 'open' growth plates until this time.

    Using stairs, jumping and rough play can cause damage to growing bones and joints as they cause the limbs to jolt sharply, which can cause tears and chips in the soft cartilage. These tears and chips can cause the bones and joints to break down in parts and not form correctly as they grow. Long walks on lead wear the puppy out, can make them sore (even though they may not show it – remember that Pyrs are quite a stoic breed) and does not allow the pup to rest when it needs to keep going until the end of the walk. The repetitive motion of the walk, particularly when on harder surfaces can also put stress on growing joints and ligaments, also causing them to break down. Pups may compensate for the sore parts if they need to keep going, which may then affect other muscles, joints and ligaments due to their irregular gait.

    So, how do I exercise my pup?

    The absolute best form of exercise for a young Pyrenean is free running and play, particularly on an undulating surface (e.g. small hills and slopes). We can do this by playing with our young Pyrenean in our backyard and taking it to play in other safe fenced areas (be wary of some fenced ‘dog parks’ though as many dogs in those spaces are not often well socialised or controlled and may not provide your pup with a good experience – use your judgement when deciding to enter!).

    If you do not have a fenced area to take your pup to, you can provide appropriate exercise by attaching a long lead like a horse lunge line and taking your pup to an area such as a park or sporting field to play (I don't like retractable leads at the pup has to mainain tension on them to make them work - effectively teaching the pup to pull). You may need to drive them there if it is not close by. By using a long line such as this, your pup has the freedom to move and play, but can not do a disapyr! Remember to allow your pup plenty of opportunity to rest as well as exercise in a ‘free’ manner.

    Can I take my pup out on lead?

    Yes! Not taking your pup on long walks does not mean you never take your pup out on a lead. In fact teaching your pup to be on a lead and taking it out to a wide variety of places is very important. However, you should view these outings not as physical exercise, but as training, socialisation and mental stimulation (see third picture attached ). Take your young Pyrenean to places like the local shops, pet store, local school, sporting games and out the front of your house as well as to places like your local vet clinic, obedience club and other fun doggy activities (but of course wait a while before you do something like the walk part of the Million Paws Walk!!)
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    Espinay Pyrenean Mountain Dogs (Australia) - putting the Breed before breeding

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  10. #30
    Old Dawg (Senior Member) Davey Benson's Avatar

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    they talk about kids now days who are involved with sports and who will practice a particular thing over and over and now the experts are starting to see this causing repitative motion injuries, in particular with junior high kids.... I can certianly see how the same type of thing can happen with a young pyr.

    If I were to walk around my "block" the shortest distance I could travel would be 10 miles.
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