Stubborn?

[Pyr-intrested]

I have been reading "The Intelligence of Dogs" by Stanley Coren. I enjoy his writing, and agree with a lot of what he says, but he does not seem to be a Pyr fan (ranking them 64 out of 79 on his Obedience and Working Intelligence scale).
Are they really that hard to train to be obedient?
I am not so much intrested in getting immediate obedience, except in matters of great importance, like "Stop" as they are running toward a busy street.
He says that a dog in the 64 ranking may require between forty and eighty experiences before seeing reliable performance. What kind of experiences have you all had?

[Momlady]

Nika (now 22 months old) is incredibly intelligent! I did Stanley's dog IQ test on her and she scored easily within the genius range. Can Nika learn tricks and obedience? ABSOLUTELY!! When there are treats involved (at the beginning) and then with just the reward of our praise, she can obey about 75 different commands.

HOWEVER, when it comes to the really important stuff (leave it, come, stay) she'll only do them if she "feels" like it. Pyrs (from what I've read) have a strong independent streak. They love to please their people, but they also love to do what pleases themselves.

I do believe, however, that the more we work with Nika and the more repetitions of "right" behaviour she experiences, the easier all of these tasks for her will become. She is still technically a puppy and I'm excited to work with her to her full potential.

By the way, when we've taught her silly things (like shake a paw, roll over, and high-five) she learns them in about 10 minutes.... I'm not exaggerating! She's SO smart :)

That's been our experience. I'd like to hear what others have to say.

Momlady

[Pyr-intrested]

Thanks Momlady. How about others? Does anyone else have any advise on the obedeince issue? Is it worth the risk?

[risestar]

Great Pyrenees possess a very high level of intelligence. Its a practical type of intelligence, like a border collie.

Basic obedience training will help a lot, however you are hindered somewhat by the independence that has been bred into them.

Remember, most dogs have been bred to follow and expect human commands, a Great Pyrenees however must make its own decisions on many matters when working

The basic commands, sit, stay, come etc are a breeze when properly trained, however they may still at times get temporary selective hearing if you let them off without leash. Just know what to expect and be in control (Fence at home, leash when on walk) and you will be fine.

Some Pyrs will walk great off leash, usually these ones tend to be less dominant and more attention seeking ones that will want to be walking with you rather than up ahead checking things out

For best results, start training and socializing from day 1. Many people that have problems wait until the dog is a certain age before they invest time into training and then it takes longer because you are having to overcome self-learned bad habits

[mattb7]

This is a very dated response to Pyr-interested's query about Pyrs and training, but I just stumbled into this Web site and can't resist responding to the references to Coren's book, which I find more amusing than useful. And truth in advertising--I only scanned the book; maybe Coren addresses and counters persuasively the points I raise below.

I've bred, raised, and trained Labs and have also raised/trained a Great Dane and my current dog, a 23-month-old male Pyr. I've been around many other dog owners and trainers much of my life, mostly in the Lab and Dane worlds.

Here's my beef, prompted in part by my dog-training experience, with Coren's apparent approach: equating a breed's average demonstration of learned behavior with its intelligence will lead to wrong conclusions about breed comparisons. Why? Because learning ability is at best one-half of what is being demonstrated--a second key element is inclination to demonstrate. Labs are strongly inclined to react to commands. My lone experience with Pyrs and the Pyr literature I've read tell me Pyrs are strongly inclined to double-clutch everything they hear; in my opinion, they think more than do Labs after hearing commands. And sometimes they think "I see no reason to do that, don't want to, and don't care if you want me to."

My Pyr learned commands as quickly as any dog I've trained. According to Coren, Labs are in the top 10; Pyrs are in the basement. Danes are somewhere in between but closer to the basement. Not at all representative of my experience. My Dane, a female, learned about as quickly as did my
Pyr--fast. Were my Labs exceptionally dumb and my Dane and Pry exceptionally smart for their breeds? I doubt it. My Pyr learned (and demonstrated) a couple of commands--sit and wave--after hearing the command and being walked through the desired behavior just three times. And I don't use treats when I train except for the wave command, which is just a dopey trick (I feel guilty asking a dog this smart to do something this pointless without compensation).

There also is a sense of thinking dog owners and dog trainers derive from the dogs they're around. Sure this is somewhat subjective, but it's often based on years of experience. It is my sense my Pyr is among the smartest of dozens of dogs I've been around.

He's also the most stubborn. I found that a wider range of training approaches were needed with him than were needed with my Labs and Dane. Sometimes I needed to impose my will to make clear to him that in all tests of will, I would win; other times he just wanted to be treated with affection and respect and given the freedom to make decisions.

But I've owned just one Pyr. Would love to hear others' experiences with training this magnificent breed and your reactions to Coren's book.

mattb7

[risestar]

There is a lot of false information out there in regards to training Pyr's. Most of it is propagated by trainers used to retrievers, collies and labs that are conditioned to obey without question as a general rule, then they come across a Pyr that seems harder to train and they chalk it up to low intelligence, when in fact the opposite is true. They are highly intelligent but also highly independant.

Collies for example are highly intelligent, but highly dependant. Without direction from their owners or handlers, they are lost. Pyr's on the other hand are thinkers, they have been bred to make their own decisions and judgements and having a human intervene and make those for them puts them at odds with their nature.

You are correct in that Pyr's will learn very quickly, however if the desire to perform is low, then they will be stubborn. This is usually one of the hardest things for people to get used to especially when coming owing sit-down-stay types of dogs.

While it is unlikely they will be at the top of the obedience class, they have many other unique traits that Pyr's owners have come to love about them.

[Christine]

I too have read Coren's book, quite some time ago actually and I'm not concerned about his rating - it's very breed specific and having raised serveral different breeds myself, including the "non" breed or "village dog" variety, the intelligence level is individual to the dog NOT the breed. Breed can give a general outline of what to "expect" in intelligence just as it can in size, colour, and demeanor.

This is my first experience with a Pyr - female, 7 months. She hears me, she processes what I say, sometimes she does it, sometimes she doesn't - BUT she does understand. She responds to patience and love like no dog I've seen - I don't know about the males, but female Pyrs are all about the affection. Every dog should have obedience training, I believe absolutely in this.

I would love to eventually take her off lead, as I do with my other dogs, however, I am very guarded in this area because I've seen my habitually quiet a laid back girl, turn into Ben Johnson when the mood strikes.

In closing, we are people trying to communicate with dogs and vice-versa, they don't always understanding us, yet accept, so why or how can we always expect to understand their every motivation.

[Christine]

... regarding the stubborn, I've been taking my Pyr to puppy school for a couple of months, while these other pups seem to respond to commands ie. "come" like they'd just been shot out of a cannon, my girl does comes, but it's slow as she looks around, scratches her ear and so on - it's SO obvious she's bored out of her mind (unlike the others in the group) and she is only coming to appease me - but I'm sure she doesn't see the purpose - nor does she care if treats are involved!

Christine

[TrueMom]

I personnally think Pyrenees are very intelligent because it's breed into them to think for themselves. It's not being stubborn. On the other hand I do wish mine would be more dependent on me but then I wouldn't have the protection she senses instinctively. I love all animals but have wished for one like her for a long time. Now that I have her I can see some of the doubts she has had handed to her in the past because we recieved her through a Landlord, the previous owner had left her and 3 other pets behind. She had to deal with a move then being mistreated and left behind. We have showed her we love her deeply and we will continue too. I do know she will protect our family and our other pets. Giving them love and showing them they can trust you is the most important key and the rest will follow. PS I have learned alot and enjoy this site so much.

[Renee]

The Pyrenees is an easy dog to train. Like someone mentioned previously, they're smart. Some of the commands my dog learned were in minutes. I can also agree they have a mind of their own on certain commands. They are very smart dogs.

[AMY]

Thanks Momlady. How about others? Does anyone else have any advise on the obedeince issue? Is it worth the risk?
Hello

I have a 2 year old male great pyrenees and his name is Thor. I find with my pyr that because we worked with him alot when he was just a puppy with the important commands like sit down stay heel and come and reward him big time with lots of love and praise he will listen almost every time. All Thor wants to do is please us so he is very good at listening and following these commands because he knows he will get praised every time!