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Chi_gal
04-06-2011, 12:29 AM
Let me start out by saying that Rajah's daycare person (an individual with several dogs) didn't drop Rajah off till 8pm ish tonight because of a last-minute situation and he was totally riled up from over exhaustion (he has been barking all night). That said he "had" to go out at 2 am and, in doing so, saw two small dogs come out the corner of a building and ran full tilt towards them to the point where I lost my shoes and, eventually, lost the leash. Thank God he didn't run into the street and just stopped when he hit the other dogs but I'm crying my eyes out right now. Sometimes I don't think I can handle him on my own and I'm so worried I will lose him outside everytime we go out and something suprises us like this...its the second time I've lost the leash since I've had him and I'm just so upset.

I feel like an aweful Pyr-mom saying this but I'm so tired/mad/upset at all this behavior despite multiple classes, corrections, collars, postive-reinforcement, etc. and I'm worried he is going to run into the street next time something like this happens. Don't know who else to vent to so sorry I'm venting to y'all.

Terry
04-06-2011, 01:26 AM
vent away chi-gal as it sounds like you had a ruff nite (pun intended)

how old is Rajah now?
sorry i cant be of any help with the leash pulling as our 2 dont want anything to do with them :rolleyes:

figured you could use a chuckle right now and i laugh everytime i see this pic :D

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae243/loon20009/imagesCAAHPIXX.jpg

i wonder if one of these would give you that extra second to get ready when Rajah gets surprised??

http://www.petexpertise.com/dog-leashes-lines-and-couplers/xtreme-heavy-duty-shock-absorbing-leash-lead.html

has anybody on the board tried this? as it might just help Rajah/chi-gal overnite?

http://www.petexpertise.com/dog-training-aids/citronella-spray-bark-collar.html


Terry

Chi_gal
04-06-2011, 05:36 AM
Thanks, Terry. The laugh was much needed...we were up all night and on top of the barking, pulling, etc. Rajah developed the runs. Not fun.

Rajah is almost 11 months now. Is this some adolescent phase or something? He is being a bit of an **s. I love the big lug, don't get me wrong, but he is something else sometimes. The first weekend of May can't come soon enough (we finally start our outdoor class so we can try to dampen some of these naughty actions/reactions outside). Not sure what the class is going to teach us other than what we are already doing but I'll give anything humane a try at this point.

Will also try the leash/collar. Anyone else have experience with either?

Again, sorry for the vent. Don't mean to make this my personal venting space.

Lou Lou
04-06-2011, 06:03 AM
I have used the citronella bark collar! It worked great with the Tibetans I used to handle. They worked sooo well that after a while all you'd have to do was show them the collar and they'd shut up.

I tried to get one for Charley when he was younger because there was a bit of a barking sitch in our apartment. I couldn't find one that worked properly because his neck was so small, but I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem with a Pyr! :p

I know not everybody likes them, but have you tried a pinch/prong collar Chi?

It worked like a charm for Ralph. Trust me, I've had my moments with him and we live in a downtown area with a ton of traffic! Within ten minutes of him wearing that thing he got the point and I haven't had a problem yet (knock on wood).

And canned 100% pumpkin puree works like a friggin dream for diarrhea AND constipation. Better than most vet prescribed meds from my experience. I freeze the puree in ice cube trays for Ralph and he gets them as treats occasionally and when he doesn't feel so great.

FourAtThree
04-06-2011, 06:53 AM
Chi_gal, I’m sorry to learn of Rajah’s getaway in the wee hours this morning! Although Phoebe has never (knock wood!) gotten away from me, I can completely empathize with your frustration. Phoebe just turned 11 months, so she and Rajah are only a few weeks apart in age. I think it’s fair to say that not one day has passed since she joined our family that she has not tested me in some way (big or small).

I know there are many different opinions here regarding the use of prong collars, but I use a prong collar on Phoebe every time we go out on a walk or in the car for a trip somewhere. It gives me the control that a regular band collar or harness does not provide. The prong collar means good things to Phoebe, and she sits nicely while I put it on her. Phoebe is on the smaller side as Pyrs go, but her determination and spirit are super-sized! I need all the help I can get to tame my wild beast, and the prong collar has worked for us.

Last fall I met a trainer who trains dogs for a couple different shows on Animal Planet, and she specializes in training with electronic collars. She’s a true believer in their effectiveness, but stressed the importance of using them correctly. One of her training clients told me that she uses an electronic collar on her dog because she lives on a busy highway and cannot chance that her dog (who has epilepsy) will run out onto the highway.

I know there are many different opinions about electronic collars, too, but it may be something to consider.

Bottom line . . . safety for both of you is of paramount importance.

As for the barking, I can’t offer any helpful suggestions because I can’t get Phoebe to stop barking. I’m starting to think I won’t be able to open any windows when the weather gets nice because her barking will echo through our whole (once quiet) town!

I’ve also used the canned pumpkin for the runs. White rice, too.

MeandMayaDog
04-06-2011, 06:55 AM
I know that ledge! That's the same one that Maya took me to when she was about 8 months old.;)

You all know that I'm a rookie, but I can tell you what worked for Maya and I. We use a prong collar, not a big thick one but about the second size up. I've been told that this size is actually more effective than the huge ones. It's a safety thing as much as a training thing. If Maya was allowed to continue to pull me around both of us would be in danger. The point with the prong is to interupt Maya's bad behavior so that I can show her what I want. No correction cycle is complete without a huge praise party as soon as she gives me attention and then comes to heel, sits, whatever I ask her to do.

The next resource that I would suggest is a book by Sarah Wilson and Brian Kilcommons called My Smart Puppy. It's not your regular 'sit', 'down', 'stay' training book. It's more a collection of games that help develop a connection between you and your dog and sets the foundation for all the obedience work. For example, one of the leash training exercises is head turns. It's a game where you have your dog in a low distraction area and provide a low level distraction - a toy, a big treat, anything that will get your dog's attention but not blow his mind. With your dog on leash, you approach the distraction and as soon as the dog starts to focus on the item you back up, and pulse the leash so that there is intermittant tension on the collar - like a continuous tap on the shoulder. As soon as the dog turns to you, you praise like mad and give the dog a treat. Eventually, distractions start to become the cue to reconnect with the handler. That's when life starts to really change for the better. This is only one of the many attention exercises in the book, and all of them have helped Maya and I.

I am a huge fan of Sarah Wilson. She also has a website called My Smart Puppy and a forum with some of the information on it. I know that everyone says that Pyrs are not your regular dog and you can't expect to train them as such, but the exercises in the book and the advice I've gotten from the website have been invaluable to me.

Good Luck with Rajah. Adolescence Sucks!

ETA: I forgot the most important part of that exercise! Once the dog gives attention, the leash fluttering stops and the dog gets a praise party. That way the lesson is attention = the end of tension on the leash and great things!

Chi_gal
04-06-2011, 07:18 AM
Thank you, all, for the advice, shared stories, empathy and support. It really means the world to me when Rajah pushes and pushes and pushes my limits. I've had mixed feelings about prong collars and have waffled between buying/using one and not. To be honest, I can't waffle any more as Rajah's safety and my own is being put at risk with his behavior and I can only control my surroundings to the degree I am currently controlling them. Off to Petco I go today during my lunch.

Lou Lou- Thank you. Going to try the citronella collar too. Did it stain your dogs' fur or anything? Also, GREAT advice on the pumpkin ice cubes. Rajah hates canned pumpkin but loves ice cubes...I betcha his love for ice cubes will overcome his dislike of pumpkin.

FourAtThree- Again, thank you. If I've waffled over the prong collar, I've really waffled over training with an electronic collar. I think, ultimately, you are right that safety comes first. Hopefully the prong collar will help somewhat and we won't need to amp it up so it speak.

MeandMayaDog- Thank you too. Might as well run to the book store during lunch and grab the book you mentioned as well. Honestly, I think we are the laughing matter of the neighborhood for several people (and others are just terrified of us). Ran into a couple at the dog park this weekend I didn't know and they said "Hey, we think we saw you and your dog a few days ago" to which I sheepishly replied "Was my dog acting like a lunatic?" and they answered "Well....yeah, sort of. He was jumping around in the middle of the street and you just kept saying "no" while trying to drag him away from another dog he was barking at". To say I was embarrassed would be an understatement. And the dog he was barking at? He'd spent all day playing nicely with and/or ignoring that dog inside of daycare. Something about being on the leash just sets him off. He's really good off leash at daycare and at the dog park.

Topper
04-06-2011, 07:58 AM
On the prong collar make sure you adjust it correctly. The other thing is a gentle leader. I also have malamutes and I would never walk them with out the prong collar.

mulewagon
04-06-2011, 08:28 AM
I feel for you! I was a little smug yesterday, because Badger was so calm and good, even went in the chicken pen without a leash, and played so nicely.

This morning he got up on the other side, chased the chickens 'til I had to leash him again, and wanted to play rough with me when we were back in the yard. He raced around like a nut and even slammed into the back of my knees, and when I tried to make him sit, zoomed under the lawn furniture.

So I turned my back and stalked inside, which usually makes him think. What's bad is that he has everything - a dead end street, acres of woods in back, toys, a wading pool...but people are the best toys!

We use a choke collar with him. He's much more attentive on leash, and doesn't mind having the collar put on (since it's associated with visiting the chickens and then getting food). But he can still pull hard on it - I guess Pyrs don't need air! I'll likely need to try a prong collar as he gets bigger.

Lou Lou
04-06-2011, 10:31 AM
Lou Lou- Thank you. Going to try the citronella collar too. Did it stain your dogs' fur or anything? Also, GREAT advice on the pumpkin ice cubes. Rajah hates canned pumpkin but loves ice cubes...I betcha his love for ice cubes will overcome his dislike of pumpkin.


Ralph wasn't really a fan of the pumpkin in puree form added to his food but loves ice cubes and would chomp on them in a frozen form so hopefully Rajah is the same!

I haven't used the citronella collars on Ralph so I'm not sure about the staining. Most of the Tibetans I used them on were dark or cream colored, although we did have one black and white boy and I never noticed any staining on him. I don't think they would stain, but they do leave them a bit damp though. On the flip side, Rajah will smell like a wonderful scented candle!

KathyCS
04-06-2011, 11:31 AM
I can only offer sympathy. I have no advice. Bear is right at 5 months now and I know at times even that young he's hard to handle on a leash - at least for me. When that 60 pounds decides he wants to go - he expects these old bones to follow. Thus the obedience class for us - but that's a whole other story. We're fortunate that we live in a small neighborhood and have a very large fenced in back yard so barring any unforseen escapes from the yard we don't really have to worry about traffic and since we live in a not so populated area, I don't think if he managed to make it to the road that many cars would want to risk hitting him for fear of the damage it would do to the car - he looks much bigger than his 60 pounds.

I admire those of you that do live in the city and get out for regular walks and exercise. It takes a lot of patience and endurance to be led around by a big Pyr. As for the barking, so far (knock on wood) Bear only barks when he sees something out of the ordinary. He hasn't taken to barking at the postman, bikers or walkers on the street or anything like that. If he does, I'll be right back here asking for advice because when he barks now it's loud enough to wake the dead.

Good luck and take heart. I understand that raising dogs is much like raising children. They seem to outgrow these stages and when they're teens I bet they don't talk back as much as the human variety.

Akarr
04-06-2011, 02:54 PM
There were some good suggestions here already, but I thought I'd share one more, in case you wanted to try something other than a prong collar. A few months back, we had problems with our soon-to-be-year-old pyr Bailey pulling on the leash excessively. At the suggestion of a friend, we tried the Easy Walk harness. Normally, I'm not a fan of harnesses as in my experience they actually tend to make pulling issues worse. However, the Easy Walk attaches the leash to the front of the dog. So when Bailey would try to pull on the lead, her momentum would carry her sideways and she'd lose leverage. It made correcting her much, much easier as it became nearly impossible for her pull the leash out of our hands. That harness should be available at just about any pet store.

For whatever it's worth, here's a link to the company's page:
http://www.premier.com/View.aspx?page=dogs/products/behavior/easywalk/productdescription

verge
04-06-2011, 04:59 PM
You need a pokey collar asap. Chewy doesn't pull a bit when he has that on

Chi_gal
04-06-2011, 07:20 PM
Thanks, all.

Akarr- Rajah is on the easy walk harness currently. But I really appreciate the suggestion.

Bought a prong collar today...still reading up on how to fit it and use it appropriately before I try it. Figure I'll work this weekend on getting him used to it.

Tsunibear
04-06-2011, 08:59 PM
It is a stage and he will grow out of it in time. Missy still pulls randomly when I walk her that is when I pull out her harness that she hates.

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753702&lmdn=Other+Ways+to+Shop&ab=pt_dogcl_online

That is her harness when she pulls it tightens on her armpits and she doesn't like that so she will slow down and let it loosen up.

The leash Terry linked to is awesome too.

As for the the citronella spray collar they work but, only if the dog doesn't like the spray. Some dogs are tolerant of them and just ignore the spray. It really depends on your dog.

pyr haven
04-07-2011, 09:55 AM
Chi-gal I empathise with you. My pyrs are good with walks, like “Leave It” cats and small dogs (they were attacked once during a walk, and they are doing better now).

My problem is my male one chasing crabs and my female lunging after anything that bobs in the water. I am also thinking of getting a prong collar, although in my particular situation, I have a problem with rust (so oily choke chain for example). Plenty good advice here – food for tot.

Terry, that was funny, appreciate the humour.

Being in situations like this, I had bawled my eyes out, a LOT in that period of 8 mths onwards. Suddenly at 2yrs old, with all the investment in consistent training (umm humans too…on being alpha), they are really very good*, even barking which amazes all of us. So persevere chi-gal, it can only get better!

* this little asterisks always appear in ads like a word of caution (they cant be angels all the time :D)

Lou Lou
04-07-2011, 10:31 AM
Pyr Haven, you can get plastic prongs but they are alot harder to find. I think they actually look less friendly than the metal ones but they work the same way and it wouldn't rust up on you.

http://www.pawmark.com/products.php?cat=76

Most of the time a verbal warning followed up with a poke and some eye contact works on Ralph for things I don't like.

Lilmamamudd
04-07-2011, 01:11 PM
canadiangundogsupply.ca has rust free ones, I got mine there four yrs ago and it still looks new....

Linsul
05-30-2011, 10:51 AM
Well this is worrisome reading, and one of the topics I came here to research. I have some experience with the prong collar with my retriever. She was great on a leash, but every once in awhile she'd lunge and take me for a ride. She'd try to run me towards kids, cats, dogs outside, etc. It was chancy though, sometimes she'd ignore those things. Going from a loose leash to my shoulder being torn apart was a constant threat. One day she did this when I was about 6 months pregnant walking my daughter to the park and I fell on my face while my daughter continued to cross a street. It had to stop, no treat time fun games, just end, period. We'd already been through fun time leash training anyway, and she was good about it 99.9999% of the time. The % she wasn't she was a danger to herself, me and in that case, my daughter. So prong collar it was and let me tell you she STOPPED. Initially she self corrected because it didn't feel good. I ended up consulting a trainer and he said I need to anticipate the pull and give a low level correction (quick tug) with a 'heel' so she'd know it was coming from me and not end up avoiding the collar at walk time. He did evaluate her temperament first before advising me on the level of correction, as I understand it the highest level is actually lifting forepaws off the ground which we never had to do.

One thing I learned about my dog through this was she only did this behavior along our 'usual' walk path. Anywhere we drove to she was fine on a flat collar. I brought both collars for awhile just in case, but she pleasantly surprised me. I think she was reacting crazily because our walk zone is 'hers' but everywhere else she's fine being a guest. I take my dogs out to potty pre-walk though since I don't want them going on my neighbors lawns, so it's not like it's been marked. I guess habit, sight, and smell make for 'ownership' just as powerfully, I don't know.

I worry about this with Ahsoka now, knowing she's going to be big. I'm reassured that other Pyr owners have used prong collars with success because honestly I thought the fur would negate any correction. I have very loose shoulders from youth sports and cortisone shots, so I can't offer anything in the way of straight brawn resistance to a dog lurching. So far she's been perfectly polite on a leash, but I'm glad for the prong collar should a day come when that changes.

Doone
05-30-2011, 04:00 PM
Let me start out by saying that Rajah's daycare person (an individual with several dogs) didn't drop Rajah off till 8pm ish tonight because of a last-minute situation and he was totally riled up from over exhaustion (he has been barking all night). That said he "had" to go out at 2 am and, in doing so, saw two small dogs come out the corner of a building and ran full tilt towards them to the point where I lost my shoes and, eventually, lost the leash. Thank God he didn't run into the street and just stopped when he hit the other dogs but I'm crying my eyes out right now. Sometimes I don't think I can handle him on my own and I'm so worried I will lose him outside everytime we go out and something suprises us like this...its the second time I've lost the leash since I've had him and I'm just so upset.

I feel like an aweful Pyr-mom saying this but I'm so tired/mad/upset at all this behavior despite multiple classes, corrections, collars, postive-reinforcement, etc. and I'm worried he is going to run into the street next time something like this happens. Don't know who else to vent to so sorry I'm venting to y'all.
I feel for you.Bruin my pyr mix 4 month old pup has a major barking issue.I have a trainer starting tomorrow with him and first on the agenda is to quell some of the barking so any useful info I will let you in on. My vet had suggested the gentle leader and when they bark pull back on it so it closes their mouth and release tension.If dog is quiet move to another spot and praise them and give a treat while saying good quiet.He said it may take some time of repeating this maneuver over and over.I was going to try this but I am going to see what the trainer has in mind first. Another trainer I spoke on the phone with suggested a remote trainer that operates like a TENS machine at physical therapy or a chiropractor and proper training with it not quite a shock collar. She also said it was good for off leash walking and the one she had was good up to 4 football fields. Unit was about $250 though plus $ to train him on it with the trainer. I totally feel for you our pup is only 4 months old but has one serious bark and when he gets his bark on it goes right through you again and again and again. lol I will repost if I get anything good from the trainer for suggestions.Best of luck

Tsunibear
05-30-2011, 04:59 PM
Honestly I don't see the gentle leader thing working for the barking. All pyrs bark it is actually something that I don't think you can train out of them. I have a pyr mix as well and she is now a little over 2 years old and she barks. By forming a routine with her though her barking will stop so long as we go through that routine. If there is serious danger there will be no stopping her barking until it is gone.

I honestly think that if you form a routine with the dog it will stop the barking quicker but, the dog will always bark.

Davey Benson
05-30-2011, 06:19 PM
Great Pyrenees bark, and their bark is different than other dogs, because mentally they are hard wired differently than other dogs. Trying to stop a pyr from barking is just a little bit like tryint to stop water from being wet.

I fear that using a large amount of corrective measures to bottle up a pyr bark could lend to a frustrated pyr. And all of us know, a frustrated pyr is not a good thing. :o

Tank
05-30-2011, 06:37 PM
Oh I so feel your pain!!! I have cried so many times with Tank who just turned one this weekend. For several months I thought we had made the worst mistake with him and our lives would never be the same or normal again. Most of the time Tank doesn't seem to care what my attitude is until he must sense that I'm at the end of my rope and does something loving and cute and then I think everything will be ok. I think 8-9 months was the worst so it just gets easier from there :) hope things improve for you!!!!

Doone
05-30-2011, 07:13 PM
Honestly I don't see the gentle leader thing working for the barking. All pyrs bark it is actually something that I don't think you can train out of them. I have a pyr mix as well and she is now a little over 2 years old and she barks. By forming a routine with her though her barking will stop so long as we go through that routine. If there is serious danger there will be no stopping her barking until it is gone.

I honestly think that if you form a routine with the dog it will stop the barking quicker but, the dog will always bark.
Unfortunately, Bruin is not just an avid barker ,he is an excessive barker.He was a rescue and wether him being removed from his mother at 6 wks or bounced around for a bit he has a good deal of seperation anxiety. The trainer is going to work on some these issues in hopes of him not barking 30 times when I leave the room even when he can see me or not frantically barking when I leave. The trainer seems pretty good and operates within the dogs mentality and psyche not treating dogs like they are all the same breed by recognizing each breeds natural instinctive behavior.We shall see.He claims to have never had to use any corractive contraptions on any dog for barking so we are willing to give it try.