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Brindles
09-12-2010, 03:05 PM
Hi fellas, me again. Looking for a bit of advice...

My new puppy Diego woke up with a snotty nose yesterday. The discharge is yellow, but the color only shows up when he is napping. We went to the vet immediately and now he's on Clavamox for a week.

He's eating and drinking fine, happy when he plays, but he is sleeping more than usual. No discharge from eyes or GI upset. Aside from two isolated coughs yesterday morning, he has not been coughing (but we have meds just in case). He has been fully vaccinated and he'll be 16 weeks old in a couple days.

The vet didn't seem to be alarmed when he saw him yesterday, but 24+ hours later Diego has shown no visible improvement. Is it too soon? Is there such thing as just a common cold in dogs, or could this be something more serious? He goes back to the vet tomorrow for boarding, so I will have a chance to talk to the doc again, but I was hoping to get some insight from other Pyr owners...

I'm really hoping my other dogs don't catch whatever he has, and I am taking precautions to make sure they don't, but I still worry. I am not typically a worrier, but in all my years of having dogs, I have never had one with a respiratory infection.

And because no thread is complete without pictures, here's Diego already doing his job at 15 weeks old. :)
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/rmh12187/watchdog01.jpg

Tsunibear
09-12-2010, 03:45 PM
Dogs can catch colds, and if he is on medicine then give it some time to start working. As far as the sleeping thing goes if he is in a growth spurt he will sleep a lot. Seeing how he is 16 weeks old he is probably going through a growth spurt. Missy did the same thing as a puppy with the sleeping.

emcleve
09-12-2010, 06:05 PM
He could absolutely have caught a cold. Just like human children, young animals don't have a strong immune system so they tend to pick up things that your grown up dogs might not even if they were all exposed to the same thing. I'd give the meds some more time.

I wouldn't worry too much about the sleeping. All that growing and fighting a cold or infection is a lot of work for a pup!

Chicag0_Red
09-12-2010, 08:54 PM
Well Diego is looking good. Sometimes I wish that "small puppy stage" would last just a bit longer, but, then they grow up to be such beautiful creatures in both body and spirit. If the vet isn't worried I wouldn't be too concerned. And yes puppys can and do catch just plain old garden variety colds. and between the growing and not feeling well it can make a fellow down-right drowsy.

_Red

pyr haven
09-13-2010, 09:10 AM
i must say i've never had a dog wit cold, cats yes. i hope u have a good vet, just like human there are certain antibiotics tat works better when u know better the nature of infection. U also mentioned tat u are sending Diego for boarding which means u wont be able to monitor and an unwell dog in boarding can also means catching other things when he is supposedly already weak in lungs/respiratory

Amatrine
09-14-2010, 11:45 AM
I agree. Cats and humans can pass colds to each other. Dogs and humans can't.

When a dog has cold symptoms, it is usually kennle cough, or could be something worse. Take to a vet.

I have never seen a dog with a cold either, but have seen dogs with Kc.

Allergies can cause a snotty nose. My chihuahua has them and always has a stuffy nose. She has to take medication,.

Brindles
09-22-2010, 04:18 PM
Pupdate:

Diego was on Clavamox for a week and slowly improved. After the meds ran out he did not get worse, but he hasn't gotten better either. Today is day 5 post-clavamox and he still has a stuffy nose (but nothing else).

Went to the vet today and did bloodwork to rule out anything systemic. An option is to put him on a fluoroquinolone based drug because they work very well, but they also can cause cartilage problems. We both want that to be a last resort. The verdict today was to monitor his temp and just watch him.

It's probably not distemper because he was vaccinated on time.
It's probably not kennel cough because there's no coughing.
It's probably not canine influenza because that's highly contagious and my other dogs are not affected.

Vet said nothing about "just a cold" but I also forgot to ask.

Thoughts?

TexasKat
09-22-2010, 05:08 PM
Have you considered allergies? Either to local, airborne pollens. Food allergies can also be the culprit. Have you recently fed him anything 'unusual' or changed his diet? What pollens are floating around this time of year in Alabama?

Brindles
09-22-2010, 06:14 PM
I had considered allergies, but stopped before I thought further for a couple reasons. The first is that I've always heard that seasonal allergies don't present as respiratory problems in dogs but as skin problems instead, which I have seen on many occasions. The second is that his nasal discharge is yellow. I've spent the last 10 years of my life with allergies and I never have yellow snot unless I'm legitimately sick.

TexasKat
09-22-2010, 07:11 PM
Absolutely, colored nasal discharge is definitely the result of a bacterial infection, but it could be a secondary infection rather than the primary issue.

It might explain why he got better slowly, if the antibiotics killed the secondary infection.

It may also be why it didn't solve the problem altogether.

Jewel
09-22-2010, 07:17 PM
To be honest, I don't like the sound of the yellow discharge not going away after antibiotic treatment. Twice in the past year Bijou has had antibiotic treatments that did not work against her infection. Both times, the antibiotic that didn't work made her better but not cure.

This is purely for informational purpose, but I have heard of two pyrs contracting rare fungal infections. One of them was Davey Benson's Layla. Here is the thread where Davey talked about Layla's illness and symptoms. http://www.greatpyr.com/forum/showthread.php?p=34220#post34220 Unfortunately Layla did pass away from her illness, but her correct diagnosis came too late in her illness to save her.

Hopefully little Diego's condition will improve on its own. I hate to put pups on antibiotics.

TexasKat
09-22-2010, 07:29 PM
Didn't know that webmd actually has information about canine health issues.

This may be of interest:

http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/my-dog-has-discharge-from-nose

Brindles
09-22-2010, 08:33 PM
Thank you for the links.

For what it's worth, there is no hacking, gagging, coughing, etc. Just runny nose and sneezing to get the boogers out. There are more boogers this morning than there were when he finished the clavamox, and there are more boogers right now than there were this morning. Maybe it's just cause he's sleeping? Also, his lung sounds are clear.

I am not the type to freak out over trivialities. This is really bothering me.

TexasKat
09-22-2010, 08:51 PM
You are right to be concerned, 'cos runny nose and sneezing isn't something to take lightly. Is the discharge still colored?

Is your vet amenable to a phone call to ask about the possibility of allergies? Giving antibiotics has never bothered me but the fluoroquinolone based drug may be overkill. Did the vet entertain the idea of a swab to identify what little critters your pup may have?

I know I'm full of questions, but (sometimes) vets don't offer enough alternatives without you digging for more information.

Brindles
09-22-2010, 09:15 PM
That's ok, I have an insatiable curiosity so I welcome questions with open arms! Thank you for bringing up those points and for offering your time and help.

If Diego wakes up in a bad way tomorrow then I will call Doc first thing. He is a new vet to me but so far I really like him a lot. I thought tomorrow I will ask him about allergies and other antibiotics as alternatives to the fluoroquinolone. I think his mind went there because the clavamox (broad-spectrum) did not effectively kill off whatever it is, and he wants something that he knows will do the trick.

By swab, do you mean nasal swab?

If the fluoroquinolone will fix the problem, is it worth it to take the risk?

I'm usually really good at staying positive but I can't help thinking the worst. This is the dog I've always wanted. I would be devastated without him.

Jewel
09-22-2010, 09:23 PM
Having boogers would indicate the discharge is thick. Is Diego still eating with the same appetite and playing like a pup should? Or does he seem to be more affectionate than before? Is there an alternative other than fluoroquinolone since that carries with it a cartilage risk?

My experience with Boijou in the past year is that when she was switched to a different antibiotic each time, the improvement was practically immediate. Saw a difference within 24 hours.

edit to add: Just saw your last post. Now, don't think too much into it yet. Diego did improve when on clavamox, so, that's a good sign. It may be that he needs the fluoroquinolone. But I think it may still be good to try something else that does not carry with it the same risks. It is always worrisome when a pup gets sick. I would know. Bijou was sick with colitis for 4 months as a pup. I thought the worst - IBD or similar nightmares. She got over it with careful management. However, to this day, she's still prone to infections and digestive issues.

TexasKat
09-22-2010, 09:52 PM
I understand, Brindles... They're like our kids, and when they're sick, we'll do just about anything to help them get better.

Having worked with health care professionals for years (in another life) I came to realize that doctors (and by extension, vets) are as human as the rest of us. They have the skills and training, but sometimes a question or two can spark an "ah, ha moment" for them just like it can for the rest of us.

I had a rescue some years ago that was allergic to grass. She was a feral puppy, so of course we had no parental history, but it turns out that her allergy was genetic (after a long time trying to figure out what the deal was) compounded by her bout of sarcoptic mange (she also had THAT when we adopted her). Her allergic reaction/skin problems were strictly a rash and not the sniffles, but the idea of a genetic grass allergy was not something most vets would have been able (or willing) to diagnose back in the mid-70's. (We were lucky to have had access to the Texas A&M vet school at the time).

A nasal swab might at least pinpoint the variety of critters infecting your pup and a more specifically targeted antibiotic may be possible. I have no idea what such a thing might cost (which is another consideration) but at least asking whether it's possible is free. :)

Jewel is right to be cautious, but in looking up info on the suggested antibiotic -- it just makes me a little cautious about side effects.

Brindles
09-22-2010, 09:54 PM
His appetite is great. He is more lethargic today than he has been in a while. But it is late and I could easily be overthinking and turning regular nighttime sleepies into "lethargy." But he was a lot less energetic on the walk today.

He has been affectionate, but he is always pretty affectionate. I don't think that has changed much if any.

It was suggested to me on another site (greyhound forum) that maybe he's just not getting enough vitamin C and his immune system is down. Could it be that simple? I will also ask the vet tomorrow.

Thank you guys again very much.

Jewel
09-22-2010, 10:01 PM
According to the holistic vet books that I've read, unlike humans, dogs do not need to take vitamin c because they produce their own. But holistic vets seem to favor supplementing vitamin c to stimulate the immune system. One thing to note though, too much vit c can cause loose stool. That's why I've never fed it to Bijou, Miss Digestive-Issues. Personally, I think Diego has an active infection going on, so he likely needs something stronger than vitamins.

Amatrine
09-22-2010, 10:20 PM
For dogs, you should give Ester C. It boost the immune system , and is much safer .

grtpyrlvr
09-23-2010, 02:48 PM
Is he running a fever at all? He definately has some type of upper respiratory thing going on. If he does start running a fever at any time consider the dog flu. Sunny came down with it last January and almost passed away from it. It's very quick acting and takes them down very quickly as it is the equivalent of the Bird Flu for Dogs. The official name is N3N8 I believe in case you want to read up on it.

Hope Deigo feels better soon

Lilmamamudd
09-23-2010, 10:30 PM
Emma had boogers, sneezes and coughing when she had worms.. have you tried that, just an opinion...

Brindles
09-24-2010, 02:13 PM
Lilmamamudd- thank you for the thought! He had a fecal the week before this happened and was negative for everything.


Another pupdate:

The vet called to check on him yesterday (how sweet is that? :o) and since there's no improvement still, we're putting him back on the Clavamox. I have a ten day supply, and if he isn't better by the end of it, he said he'll prescribe more.

Crossing my fingers!! Thank you for all your help. :)

Tsunibear
09-24-2010, 02:57 PM
Well hopefully he is better by the time the Clavamox is done.

Brindles
09-28-2010, 04:18 PM
Well, we have completed four days of Clavamox with minimal improvement if any at all. Called the vet to ask him some more questions and he said he is bothered that Diego isn't getting better. I also told him that when I got Diego he was covered with ticks. He said a tick borne disease is certainly possible but usually they present with different symptoms.

Vet wants to run another CBC (complete blood count) just a week later to see if the levels have changed. There was nothing alarming about the first one; just a slight indication of a chronic infection, which is why he's at the vet in the first place.

I asked the head vet where I work (very smart, very experienced, but large animal) what he thought about it, and he said as long as Diego is eating and gaining weight and still acting normal, it's probably not anything to be concerned about, and another CBC so soon is probably not necessary. He said some dogs catch things that take four weeks to go away.

One vet is concerned, one vet is not. Pulling my hair out over this.

Tsunibear
09-28-2010, 07:33 PM
Yeah that sounds like a hair pulling moment to me. I don't see the harm in doing another CBC just to be safe.

Dr.jaimie
09-28-2010, 09:05 PM
if ur not getting much improvement on antibiotics i recommend a respiratory PCR panel be run at a lab. this will test for the most common things that cause resp. infections and may guide to better treatment. cbc would at least know if his body is responding to the infection and winning. i only skimmed through some of the posts....has doxycycline been given yet? it works well for a lot of respiratory diseases like influenza and kennel cough...also tick born diseases.

Brindles
09-29-2010, 07:11 AM
if ur not getting much improvement on antibiotics i recommend a respiratory PCR panel be run at a lab. this will test for the most common things that cause resp. infections and may guide to better treatment. cbc would at least know if his body is responding to the infection and winning. i only skimmed through some of the posts....has doxycycline been given yet? it works well for a lot of respiratory diseases like influenza and kennel cough...also tick born diseases.

I think the respiratory panel is the next step. The trouble with the CBC is that he had one a week ago... would that much change in his bloodwork in a week if his symptoms are no different? Money is tight atm. I can't afford to spend $65 for inconclusive results. I'd rather spend it on other tests since that has been done already.

We talked about tetracycline but have not given it (yet).

What if this is fungal? Wouldn't antibiotics make it worse?

Brindles
09-29-2010, 04:39 PM
Vet called this afternoon. There has been a confirmed outbreak of canine influenza virus at the local humane society. I haven't been there recently but there's a good chance that a dog at the doggy daycare had.

CIV takes 10-30 days to run its course and is highly contagious with a very low mortality. Diego has all the symptoms of a mild case (except he's not coughing). The virus basically just has to run its course, and secondary infections need to be treated, which is what we're currently doing.

Still not sure why Dazzle and Echo don't have it, though. :confused: but THANKFUL!

Interesting piece of info for greyhound owners: CIV mutated from a strain of equine influenza and was first seen in racing greyhounds in 2004 in Florida. Vet said when it hits greyhounds it hits them hard.

ETA: Both of my dogs were on the track in 2004, albeit not in FL. Maybe they were exposed and gained immunity?

nick's spirit
09-29-2010, 04:52 PM
Glad to hear you finally have a diagnosis!!
Hope little Diego feels better soon

Tsunibear
09-29-2010, 04:59 PM
It is possible that they have grown and immunity to it. There is also the theory that they are up to date on all of their shots and since Diego is still a puppy and receiving shots it could make his immunity level lower. That is if he hasn't received all of his shots yet though.

Brindles
09-29-2010, 05:45 PM
Thank you guys very much for all of your help and ideas. It helped my mental state immensely! We are going to finish this round of Clavamox and decide where to go from there. I will update and let you guys know how he's doing then. He does seem better today. :)

Thank you again for putting up with me. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

Dr.jaimie
09-30-2010, 08:07 PM
we had a possible outbreak of CIV last summer and made the vaccine mandatory on all boarders thereafter. 3 dogs died from it and i had 1 other with a severe case that i got through it. hope ur baby gets better soon. hard part about it is once they r showing symptoms of CIV they r no longer shedding the virus so the test will not show up positive for CIV. only way to know is test all animals around the sick ones and hope one shows up positive to confirm it. or u treat and let it run its course.

grtpyrlvr
10-01-2010, 12:09 PM
we had a possible outbreak of CIV last summer and made the vaccine mandatory on all boarders thereafter. 3 dogs died from it and i had 1 other with a severe case that i got through it. hope ur baby gets better soon. hard part about it is once they r showing symptoms of CIV they r no longer shedding the virus so the test will not show up positive for CIV. only way to know is test all animals around the sick ones and hope one shows up positive to confirm it. or u treat and let it run its course.

When Sunny had this the vet actually refused to keep him within the office because of how contagious it was. We were sent home with IV fluids and medications to use if his fever went any higher. I have a medical background so he felt comfortable doing this. He said he had heard of many Vet clinics that had to be closed for weeks because of an outbreak and did not want to take the chance. Sunny is on Metrodal so he catches things quicker then other dogs. We now vaccinate against it because of how sick it made him.