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Topper
01-29-2010, 10:12 AM
Topper is doing pretty good he has had only one real bad day and that was last Thursday. We have moved him outside in the back yard. He still get to come inside to eat and the night time. I feel since he been a inside dog his coat is not made to be outside 24 hour a day. At least for this winter. Plus then I get to still love, brush and talk to my boy.
Here is the question could it be possible the dog food(Science Diet 1+ large) and the meat I feed him have to do with his aggression problem. It seem that he gets a bit jumpy, nerevice and his eyes get blood shot after he eat his meal. :)

nick's spirit
01-29-2010, 10:22 AM
Interesting observation...my female Aussie gets "hyper" after she has her evening meal too. I wonder if it is the food (though my other dogs don't react that way) or maybe her metabolism. Maybe I need to be feeding her earlier in the evening.
So do you think Topper is happier being outside, calmer & less agressive??
I know we want our BWD's by our sides, but if this is keeping him calmer, at least you will have him in your life. And you can give him love at his "special" time with you.
You could always try a different food. If I remember correctly, I think one with a low/lower protien rate than what you are feeding now. I leave the food advice to those that have had to work with that.
Thanks for letting us know how Topper is coming along...give him a hug from me & Holly!!

vin63
01-29-2010, 10:26 AM
...
Here is the question could it be possible the dog food(Science Diet 1+ large) and the meat I feed him have to do with his aggression problem. It seem that he gets a bit jumpy, nerevice and his eyes get blood shot after he eat his meal. :)

Forgive me for not knowing...do you feed raw meat?

Milu
01-29-2010, 10:41 AM
Topper, you mentioned that your dog bit your husband's face after he was removing the bowl... could part of this be extreme food aggression? Like, he really hates his food being touched, and he's extremely sensitive and has heightened aggression after and during eating because he's been stressing out about it the whole time- sort of a "It really bothers me immensely that someone is touching my food and I'm even worrying about it as I eat"? Do you think this could cause the jumpiness and bloodshot eyes?

fluffylove
01-29-2010, 11:21 AM
Topper, get professional help, seriously...there are so many opinions here and everyone meaning well, but your issue goes beyond this.
Blood shot eyes are usually a sign of stress, and it's that he's angry, it's that he doesn't respect you, you have no business going into his food. The thing with pyrs is that they had to be aggressive with food when they used to guard sheep as the sheep wanted to eat their food, so they had to fend off dozens of sheep for thier food, that's where it comes from, however if you have a dog that does this with humands, GET HELP...someone that knows what they are doing, if not barkbusters, which I HIGHLY reccomend, then a trainer that knows what they are doing with the breed, as MANY people do not know what to do with it, or 'think' they know, all the while they take your money and time and run.
DO NOT GO INTO HIS FOOD UNTIL YOU GET HELP, IF HE'S THAT BAD WITH FOOD IT CAN SPREAD TO OTHER ISSUES, AND MOST LIKELY WILL, SO YOUR SWEET BOY WILL BE ONE OF THOSE THAT IS PUT AWAY. I'VE SEEN IT, SADLY AS PEOPLE DON'T DO ANYTHIND ABOUT IT. PUT HIM IN A ROOM, QUIET, LET HIM EAT, WHEN HE'S DONE TAKE THE BOWL AWAY AND LEAVE IT AT THAT UNTIL YOU GET THE ISSUE RESOLVE. WHY FIGHT BATTLES YOU CAN'T WIN AND DON'T KNOW HOW TO WIN???? JUST SETTING YOURSELF UP FOR FAILURE!!!

Topper
01-29-2010, 01:04 PM
Thanks to everybody.
I think topper is doing much better out side. He does like to come inside to. Which I am going to make sure that happens even as time goes on.
On the raw meat I do hamburger, pork chops, ham slices, real meat hotdogs and other beef meat.
Has anybody tried that natural food roll at walmart. They have a cold box they have them in. Well I picked up a roll of it because it say all natural. Well my boy opened the front door and though it out.

Fluffylove we have been seeing a behaviorist since july. In Wy there is nothing so we have to travel 250 miles one way to see her. We do a lot over the phone.
He has only had food aggression toward other dogs. I have alway put my hands into is bowl, I have even hand feed him out of the bowl when he doesn't want to eat.
I don't know why he did that to my husband. Topper was done eating.
Topper has NEVER EVER shown aggression toward us until this time.
He might had been very tried for that day we did a lot outside and told a lot walk before dinner.
90% of the time I can tell if he is not doing good by his eyes. They will be red.
Topper also doesn't a lot of movement.
:)

fluffylove
01-29-2010, 03:22 PM
Like I said, when you see someone that doesn't know what they are doing, things get worse. I hate being proven right over and over again, sigh. I'm sorry to say your trainer has no idea what pack hierachy is and how it is achieved. I wish you had more success. When you achieve correct hierarchy, top dog status you can do ANYTHING with the dog. Too bad you don't have barkbusters near you, they solve these problems every day, but only when people work at it and do the homework assigned.
Good luck, I sincerely wish you well but if you problem is getting worse, as it is from your message, biting your husband, I'd either clarify with the trainer what is going on, also making sure you are doing exactly what the trainer has said, or get another one.
This is all I will say on this.

Jewel
01-30-2010, 07:17 AM
If Topper gets bloodshot eyes right after he eats, it would seem that is probably related to resource guarding aggresion. Both of my dogs get very hyper right after their meals, but I would describe it as happy hyper because they have a full belly and they usually procced to go play in the backyard.

Maybe you can try the scatter feeding that Milu talked about in the other thread. Milu maybe u can describe again here?

You are doing a lot for a dog that may have been put down already if he were with another family and I hope you will find success with Topper. I am sending lots of good karma your way :)

vin63
01-30-2010, 08:33 AM
Thanks to everybody.
I think topper is doing much better out side. He does like to come inside to. Which I am going to make sure that happens even as time goes on.
On the raw meat I do hamburger, pork chops, ham slices, real meat hotdogs and other beef meat...
:)

I hate to say this, but I think your dog appears to be doing better outside because he does not regard the people in your household as part of the pack...and, he is continuing to have his alpha status reinforced. All of our dogs for the past 20 years have been rescues, and some were aggressive dogs that lived on the streets, but once they were in our household they all would rather be with us than anywhere else because we (me and my wife) were the unquestioned pack leaders.

Be careful about feeding raw meats that are commercially available for human consumption (meant to be cooked or that contain lots of nitrates, etc.).

I would recommend reading some of the information on pack behavior and its relevance to human canine dynamics. I wish you luck.

Milu
01-30-2010, 10:01 AM
Sure-
So from the beginning- Kuma was always a bit antsy about his food. Steve and I could both be around him, stick our hands into the food etc but he couldn't tolerate the cat by him. Now, at the same time- he doesn't have the same issues with treats and bones (in fact, the cat's favorite activity is to saunter up to him and steal a bone while he's working on it), just had an issue with food inside the bowl. Even when he wasn't eating, he would sit around the bowl to keep the cat away. So from the advice of Barkbusters- I eliminated the bowl altogether. We scatter his food either on a clean kitchen floor or outside on the stone steps leading to the patio. It worked instantly- with the food no longer contained, he doesn't care who or what is happening around him when he eats, even if the cat is snatching up some of his food. Before, his body would stiffen, his eyes would be very wary when the cat approached, but now Kuma is very relaxed- he seems to be more interested in finding the pieces, sometimes even eating from under the cat's legs.
Hope this helps.

Kate53
01-30-2010, 10:23 AM
It certainly appears that the blood shot eyes after feeding and the nervous behavior at that time could be related to a medical issue. I think the suggestion about testing for any hormonal (thyroid?) issues is a good idea. It might be worth your while to change Topper's diet too, just to see if it could be a food related issue. Milu seems to have had great results with the scatter feeding and I would certainly give that a try as well. So many great suggestions from everyone....what have you got to lose? Please keep us updated on Topper's status....you know we are all concerned.

Kate53
01-30-2010, 10:54 AM
For those of us who have been researching different foods, I am again in search of a dry food that would be suitable for my Pyr. I am trying to get more info about this Rubicon "Great Life" kibble but have just recently learned the following tidbits of information regarding dry dog food: Purdue University has found that if fat is listed in the top four ingredients, it has been identified as a factor increasing the risk of bloat. I further read that dry dog foods preserved with citric acid (vitamin C) should NOT be served premoistened as it also is an identified factor increasing the risk of bloat. I guess it pays to read your ingredient labels.....

vin63
01-31-2010, 09:10 AM
For those of us who have been researching different foods, I am again in search of a dry food that would be suitable for my Pyr. I am trying to get more info about this Rubicon "Great Life" kibble but have just recently learned the following tidbits of information regarding dry dog food: Purdue University has found that if fat is listed in the top four ingredients, it has been identified as a factor increasing the risk of bloat. I further read that dry dog foods preserved with citric acid (vitamin C) should NOT be served premoistened as it also is an identified factor increasing the risk of bloat. I guess it pays to read your ingredient labels.....

Not to hijack the thread, but over the years, it has been my experience that bloat can occur at anytime with any type of food - just a threat of owning a giant breed. We've had friends and therapy team members who have had the unfortunate experience of rushing their dogs to an emergency vet clinic because of bloat, including one of our dear friends and her Leonberger (and she is the most conscientious dog owner we know and feeds a raw diet) last month. Our approach is feeding more frequently in smaller proportions and limiting the running around and roughhousing immediately after a meal.

Kate53
01-31-2010, 09:20 AM
I agree Vin. And I certainly don't think you are hijacking anything! We are all here to learn from each other. I just like to think that by keeping vigilant about these little so-called factors might make a difference somewhere down the road. You know the old saying, "It couldn't hurt".....

pyr haven
01-31-2010, 06:56 PM
Our approach is feeding more frequently in smaller proportions and limiting the running around and roughhousing immediately after a meal.

no hijack it's only good info. on the bloat thing, my pyrs are almost 1 yr now, and they are active pups, shall i continue to feed 3 times a day?

vin63
01-31-2010, 07:17 PM
If three times per day is working for you, I say yes. I tend to stick with schedules that work for our household...trying not to deviate too much so as not to disrupt the dogs' schedule/routine. I feed about 2 cups at 6 am and 6 pm, as well snacks throughout the day.

pyr haven
02-01-2010, 12:09 AM
thanks for the quick reply! it's good to know. am and pm we do the herd thing around the farm chores or walks, & we always make sure they are in resting mode b4 and after feeding. lunch is usually the lighter meal in between their naps. btw we are considering getting a horse, but guess who will end up taking care of another new zoo member...as much as i love horses!

Autumn & Jax
02-01-2010, 12:28 PM
I feed Diamond puppy chow 2x a day.
In the morning its 1-1&1/2 cups dry food, an egg, and enough canned food to glue it all together, mixing it up with my hands.
Evening I feed the same except no egg.
My Jax is 4 months & 42 lbs. He isnt fat or excessivly lean, can easily feel his ribs. He doesnt always eat it all, so I put it in the fridge & add to it for the next meal. I hate to waste the food.
I started out putting cottage cheese in it too, but he didnt like it/
Any thoughts on this?

Kate53
02-01-2010, 06:19 PM
I feed Diamond puppy chow 2x a day.
In the morning its 1-1&1/2 cups dry food, an egg, and enough canned food to glue it all together, mixing it up with my hands.
Evening I feed the same except no egg.
My Jax is 4 months & 42 lbs. He isnt fat or excessivly lean, can easily feel his ribs. He doesnt always eat it all, so I put it in the fridge & add to it for the next meal. I hate to waste the food.
I started out putting cottage cheese in it too, but he didnt like it/
Any thoughts on this?


I would respectfully suggest you find a better quality food rather than the "Puppy Chow" if it is the traditional Purina product you are talking about. That particullar food does not have the best quality ingredients. A premium dog food would not require much more in the way of additions unless you have finicky eater....in which case the better kibble might be more appealing to them. I know not everyone can afford the better dog food however, it will make a difference in their appearance and temperment to be fed a good quality food.

DPW
02-02-2010, 09:11 AM
Autumn & Jax, Diamond Brand food is what I feed our dog. Diamond Brand Naturals Chicken and Rice formula to be exact. It has the closest amounts of protien and fat I was looking for.
It does not appear on any "best" dog food lists but it the best we can afford and the feed store where I buy my goat and chicken food carries it.
The writers of a book whose knowledge I trust suggest switching to an adult dog food at three months. As long as it's a premium dog food.
Although Diamond Brand Naturals may not make the "premium" lists I believe it to be a very good food and Cider has been eating it since he was 3 months and now at 17 months he is in excellent condition.
Cider does not get any canned food. His morning meal is just the dry kibble. About 2 cups. In the evening he gets another 2 cups of kibble and some kind of combination of one or more of the following. Plain yougurt, cooked white rice, raw carrot and/or raw egg with crushed shell.
It sounds like what you are doing is working for your pup and that is all that matters. Like the old saying goes, "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

Topper
02-02-2010, 01:51 PM
Thank You for your input.
I love my topper. He is a very loving boy.
One of you said that he liked it outside because we are not park of his pack. I don't think this is so. I think he love it out side because he is not penned up He has his own little area. He still get to come in for the night which he has taken to the couch. During the day he doesnt have to be kenneled up. Last Night he was the most happiest dog I have seen in a while. He was jumping all over, tail curled up and this BIG smile I have ever seen on him. He know get special time just for him. I think he is just a one dog house he love the special attention. He had no red eye for over two weeks now.
I go to Denver Colorado every three month for medical stuff. This spring I am going to see about seeing a barkbuster. I want to make sure they know pyreness.

vin63
02-02-2010, 02:47 PM
Thank You for your input.
I love my topper. He is a very loving boy.
One of you said that he liked it outside because we are not park of his pack. I don't think this is so. I think he love it out side because he is not penned up He has his own little area.

That would be me. But, the point I was attempting to make is that he appears to be doing better because the humans are acquiescing to his demands of being outside. This accommodation combined with his behavior of growling at people and aggressively biting its human handler clearly indicates to me that he does not respect the humans in the household and he considers himself the alpha...that is just pack dynamics. As I mentioned before, I wish you the best of luck.

Topper
02-02-2010, 03:38 PM
Maybe the barkbuster can help me understand this pack thing. For I am not understanding this. I have never had a problem with a dog like I have with topper. The behaviorist doesn't not seem to what to help and haven't had any luck finding other to other. For I have been asking if they know pyrenees. Topper has not had a problem with me just my husband. My husband doesn't get around as he should for he had two transplant done a year ago. But for now at least my topper is happy. I will never give up on him.

lovely mornings
02-02-2010, 03:42 PM
I was just researching diamond pet food, as I bought kirklands brand made by diamond and wanted to know what formula the kirklands was relabeling.

It appears the one I have is chicken and rice naturals.
Diamond has a lower rent brand... that uses by product meal as 1st and main ingred. but the naturals lines appear to be very fine quality on paper.

They have however made poor choices and put pets at risk in the past few years using inferior quality (diseased corn) ect... I am hoping because of recalls due to stupidity perhaps checks and balances are better adhered to by the companys employees.

Diamond also makes
Diamond introduced Diamond Naturals in 2006. These products contain no by-products, no corn and no wheat. It also manufactures under contract for other companies, including as of 2009 at least some of the pet foods sold under brands or business names.

Canidae Pet Food
Costco's Kirkland Signature
Solid Gold Health Products for Pets
**** Van Patten's Natural Balance Pet Foods

The naturals line looks impressive on paper, costco has this line for 11.00 for
2o.oo bag.
worth looking into.

vin63
02-02-2010, 06:28 PM
Maybe the barkbuster can help me understand this pack thing. For I am not understanding this. I have never had a problem with a dog like I have with topper. The behaviorist doesn't not seem to what to help and haven't had any luck finding other to other. For I have been asking if they know pyrenees. Topper has not had a problem with me just my husband. My husband doesn't get around as he should for he had two transplant done a year ago. But for now at least my topper is happy. I will never give up on him.

The transplant thing is an interesting component. Is your husband still in a convelescent stage of recovery (you mentioned he's not getting around as well as he should)? Signs of weakness can be a factor with a dog that has a stong personality. I had a kidney transplant several years ago and felt that about six months prior and a year after the surgery I was not up to rescuing another dog - we adopted Sebastian a year after my surgery. That's when I felt strong enough and had the energy to bring a new dog into our household/pack. I know I've said it before, but I strongly recommend reading up on pack dynamics, and become familiar with the behaviors of the alpha - it's the little behaviors that really make a big difference.

DPW
02-03-2010, 08:52 AM
Unfortunately, pet food recalls happen. Fortunately, the percentage of pets actually harmed by tainted foods is quite small. Which is no consolation if it is your pet that gets sick or dies.
Check out this link to see the scope of the 2007 pet food recall.


http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/petfoodrecall/

Kate53
02-03-2010, 09:47 AM
The transplant thing is an interesting component. Is your husband still in a convelescent stage of recovery (you mentioned he's not getting around as well as he should)? Signs of weakness can be a factor with a dog that has a stong personality. I had a kidney transplant several years ago and felt that about six months prior and a year after the surgery I was not up to rescuing another dog - we adopted Sebastian a year after my surgery. That's when I felt strong enough and had the energy to bring a new dog into our household/pack. I know I've said it before, but I strongly recommend reading up on pack dynamics, and become familiar with the behaviors of the alpha - it's the little behaviors that really make a big difference.


As commercial as some may think, Cesar Milan, the infamous "Dog Whisperer", is a great example of a "pack leader". I have always admired his ability to rehabilitate those dogs considered unadoptable or otherwise headed for euthanasia. Some of his training ideas are simple yet affective. He has all kinds of training books/CDs out there. Hey, you might even get him to do a show on rehabilitating a food aggressive GP!!

susun
02-03-2010, 01:49 PM
I would love to see Cesar do a show with a Great Pyrenees. I have never seen him work with one? Maybe you should contact him Topper, he has to get dogs for his show from somewhere!

Topper
02-03-2010, 02:42 PM
I started to look on the internet have to look some more tomorrow. Have to head to the vet for a check for Tasha.
I did put a e-mail in the Bark Buster in Denver, Co to see if they can help. See what happens. :)

dsloveswva
02-04-2010, 05:00 AM
i recently saw an episode of cesar milan about food agression, with a large white lab, i think. my daughter called me to tell me it was on. the behavior and mannerisms of the dog were very similar to what i've seen my pyr joy do.
of course he successfully solved the problem; i however have not completely.

Autumn & Jax
02-04-2010, 02:03 PM
Autumn & Jax, Diamond Brand food is what I feed our dog. Diamond Brand Naturals Chicken and Rice formula to be exact. It has the closest amounts of protien and fat I was looking for.
It does not appear on any "best" dog food lists but it the best we can afford and the feed store where I buy my goat and chicken food carries it.
The writers of a book whose knowledge I trust suggest switching to an adult dog food at three months. As long as it's a premium dog food.
Although Diamond Brand Naturals may not make the "premium" lists I believe it to be a very good food and Cider has been eating it since he was 3 months and now at 17 months he is in excellent condition.
Cider does not get any canned food. His morning meal is just the dry kibble. About 2 cups. In the evening he gets another 2 cups of kibble and some kind of combination of one or more of the following. Plain yougurt, cooked white rice, raw carrot and/or raw egg with crushed shell.
It sounds like what you are doing is working for your pup and that is all that matters. Like the old saying goes, "If it ain't broke don't fix it."


Its nice to hear from others who feed in a similar manner to me. Is the naturals any better of a food than the regular food? I just cant afford any more expensive of a food. We work selling food at fairs so our income fluctuates a lot and right now its dragging.

Autumn & Jax
02-04-2010, 02:12 PM
I am a big fan of Cesar Milan because he seems very honest with people as to what the cause of behavior is and what the owner will have to do to maintain the work that Cesar does. He seems to care about helping the dog. I use his methods in training my pup and he is doing great. He is four months and I took him to the park. He had babies crawling on him, kids playing with him and running around and screaming. He sat or lay there just chilling out. And I can have another dog pass us without him getting up or taking off. I am very pleased with the results I have achieved. However he isnt perfect because he likes to wrestle with my 5 year old and sometimes nips her. She instigates a lot so they are both to blame for that.

lovely mornings
02-04-2010, 07:25 PM
Is the naturals any better of a food than the regular food?

I did read both the labels on the diamond regular and the diamond naturals.

The naturals does provide better ingredients.
The regular formula's main source of protien is chicken by product meal, considered a very low quality source.
different than chicken meal. the by product is all the left overs including feathers and beaks not the good left overs that are in the chicken meal.
The naturals main ingredient is chicken, then chicken meal.
So is the kirklands cosco brand made by diamond... the ingredients match the chicken and rice naturals at a really good price.
I was impressed....
Thanks for calling my attention to the food....
I saw the kirkland thread and the diamond thread just this past week and went to cosco and the feed store to compare based on the reviews given.

Very nice info given online here.

pyr haven
02-04-2010, 10:54 PM
The transplant thing is an interesting component. Is your husband still in a convelescent stage of recovery (you mentioned he's not getting around as well as he should)? Signs of weakness can be a factor with a dog that has a stong personality. I had a kidney transplant several years ago and felt that about six months prior and a year after the surgery I was not up to rescuing another dog - we adopted Sebastian a year after my surgery. That's when I felt strong enough and had the energy to bring a new dog into our household/pack. I know I've said it before, but I strongly recommend reading up on pack dynamics, and become familiar with the behaviors of the alpha - it's the little behaviors that really make a big difference.

I was away and just read about topper. I have tears in my eyes and i am sorry for wat topper's mom has to go thru. I hope u will quickly recover

I'd like to add tat this is a good observation. the only time my male pyr was aggressive to people was the day i came back from hospital (it was also the day he jumped into a pool too deep for him to handle, and boy did i panicked cos I was an invalid). Mud at that time, was close only to me until much later to the rest of the family. Even now, when he wants to scoot off to follow my husband, he will turn and look back at me for my consent (like he's saying "Hey, u gonna be okay without me?"). he will bounce off happily once i say "go to daddy"

DPW
02-05-2010, 07:48 AM
Autumn & Jax, keep in mind that the higher cost of a better food generally will be offset by the fact that your dog will need less to get the same amount of nutrition. Up to a point. My local feed store has a high end dog food priced at $37.00 for a 15 LB bag. I think I could afford to feed Cider about every other day at that price.