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heyitstay
01-26-2010, 06:21 PM
I started discussing this in the playdate thread but some people thought I was trying to be funny when in reality its very concerning. We have 2 pyrs as you may know that will be 5 months on feb.4th. They are family pets so we have been socializing them from the beginning. We originally were getting one puppy but ended up with brothers which I know can be a problem but they will be neutered and if problems arise we have a trainer who does wonders. Anyways kujo has done great, looks forward to walks, loves kids and other dogs, is house trained and perfect. Kieran was the clearance puppy 200$ less than kujo, we were told because he was the runt. Recently he has started peeing on the floors again. He is very sensitive and will scream if yelled at, so we now only use positive reinforcement, the can of death also isn't an option because he's scared of that noise as well. He will not walk on a leash! He lays on the sidewalk screaming like we are killing him. We have never laid a hand on our animals and its humiliating if people are watching him lay there crying. I literally have to carry him back in the house which will be a problem soon. We will be consulting a trainer but has anyone had these problems and have they been resolved. If they can't be, he will have to be left out of outings that our other dogs enjoy :( help

Milu
01-26-2010, 06:31 PM
if problems arise we have a trainer who does wonders.
It sounds like it already is a problem- I would call that trainer ASAP.
Can you give more background info about where you got him? You're doing wonderfully with his brother and dogs don't become like that for no reason- can you tell us more about this behavior? Was he always like this, from the moment you came home with him? Is he fearful in any other situations? What do you do when he does scream on walks?

ad_mn81
01-26-2010, 06:36 PM
I'm far from a dog expert, but I think in general yelling at a dog is never helpful. Do you have a fenced backyard? If u do, i would try walking him around the backyard while feeding him treats. If he is not food motivated maybe he would chase/follow after a toy?

heyitstay
01-26-2010, 06:47 PM
yes, you are right about there being a problem, in that part of my novel I was reffering to problems that may arise from having two males. They were bought from a low grade breeder in ocala who has maybe a litter a year. We met the parents and both had very desirable personalities. We were told before hand that kier was a little on the shy side (yes I know, shame on us) but h passed all of the puppy tests and really took to us. By puppy tests I mean pinching the toes, flipping him on his back, staring him in the eyes etc. He was also the one the granddaughter favored, so maybe he was dropped at somepoint? He doesn't have a mean bone in his body. We first noticed his sensitivity a few days after he came home. If we stepped on a toe bare footed or tail he screams for quite a few seconds. Keep in mind its only my mom and I and we are both under 115 pounds. We have had the vet check him out and we even had xrays done to be sure that there were no pre existing injuries. Originally he would walk on leash but he was never thrilled. When he started acting up I would ignore him so that the behavior wasn't praised, but he won't budge and I don't have the mean streak in my body to drag him on his back down the side walk which would probably cause more bad then good anyways. He seems to be getting worse maybe because he knows he doesn't have to walk if he lays and shrieks? Ugh so frustrating

heyitstay
01-26-2010, 06:50 PM
to clear one thing up: by low grade I meant they have a few dogs and a few litters, they are reputable, the dogs are ckc registered.

admn.. We do have a fenced yard and I will try that. Great idea! The trainer is being called tomorrow.

fluffylove
01-26-2010, 08:00 PM
Runts should not be sold cheaper, I've seen runts be the biggest and nicest dogs in the litter! Not always the case, but it's a term misused often.

Yelling at dogs, doesn't really help. I growl and use sound with my guys, no problem, even when the bitch is in heat. If you are infact the 'alpha' you wil NOT have any problems with males, neutering doesn't do all that much, takes the edge off....sometimes. Be aware of bone cancer though, they are now more likely to get it.

Make sure your trainer tells you about ignoring your dogs, and don't get physical with them, if they tell you to pin, RUN AWAY FROM THEM!

Ignore demands for attention or play, you start it
Be consistent
Be calm
Follow through with your demands
Use your body language, crouch down to call to you etc

Dominance is something as subtle as standing on your feet, or leaning on you. I have a bitch that was extremely insecure and would not stop leaning adn stepping on me. Once I got that under control, you'd think she was a confident "bring it on" bitch.

Jewel
01-26-2010, 08:42 PM
I think he's definitely learned that screaming stops you from doing whatever it is he doesn't like. How old were the pups when you took them home? I also think he may not be a wuss. Rather he may be quite smart and has learned to manipulate. On the other hand, he may just be slow in maturing mentally and so he is not able to handle things a normal sized pup like his brother is able to handle.

You may need a behaviorist, not a trainer. There is a difference between the two. A behaviorist focuses on why a behavior occurs and try to modify the behavior as needed. A trainer may not have knowledge or training on dog psychology to deal with mental or pschological issues. But of course some trainers may have lots of experience that they are able to deal with your pup's issues.

What does Kier like to do? What activities make his little tail wag? What is he interested in? By engaging him to do things that he likes, you associate yourself to good things. With a sensitive pup like that you need to be very observant. My male is not a scaredycat per se but he's very sensitive and insecure. A few years ago he got yelled at by my husband, he started hyperventilating, he couldn't breathe. We've spent lot of time working with him. Good luck and let us know how things go.

TexasKat
01-26-2010, 08:45 PM
How is he if you just take him into the front yard (or where ever you start your walks from?) Does he seem nervous? Have you just sat and played with him there without requiring him to go for a walk? Is the route you walk busy? is it the leash? the noise? the unfamiliar area? Do you take him with his brother?

Our male puppy (at about 3 months) objected radically about going out on a leash (not quite as bad as you described but almost) In addition, he was very afraid of cars going by on the road.

I decided I'd take our little girl out by herself -- happy talk, excited voice-- and leave Scout behind. (He howled at us all the way out the door because he was left behind). We walked as far as the mailbox and back and by the time we got back, Scout was very anxious to go too. Put on his collar and now HE'S the one who does the biggest pyr happy dance when it's time to walk. It took (probably unusually) just a one time instance of being left behind and ignored.

Noise is another issue. Scout hates noises he can't understand. He doesn't cry, but hurries away from the noise. We've worked on the noise of passing cars while on walks in our suburban neighborhood by strictly staying on the sidewalk, allowing him to switch to the far side of the sidewalk and calmly continuing the walk while talking to him. We're also working on watching for cars before crossing streets. The breeder's favorite dog was killed by a car right in front of the puppies the day before we picked Scout up to come home. According to the breeder...there were screeching tires, screaming people and cries from the injured dog. I firmly believe he still hasn't recovered from that trauma.

He's progressed a lot in shying away from 'unusual noises'. But it takes a lot of time and consistency...

DPW
01-27-2010, 07:24 AM
My first question would be did you teach the basics of come, sit, stay? In my opinion there is not much sense in moving on without nailing down those basic commands first.
Here is a link to a short article about raising littermates.

http://www.caninedevelopment.com/Sibling.htm

heyitstay
01-27-2010, 12:08 PM
lots of questions so I'll try to answer then all. We got the puppies when they were 8 weeks old. They know the basic commands and we originally walked them seperatly so the training would be focused on one pup at a time. Kieran never was too excited about walking and leaving him behind doesn't seem to bother him... At all. He is actually quite content to stay home. We have tried walking him with kujo, but with np prevail. Kieran screams and kujo looks at him like he is the oddest animal to ever exist. Kieran now refuses to even go out the front door, or anywhere near it for that matter. I will try sitting in the yard with him and just letting him relax, so he will see there is nothing to worry about. The really frustrating thing is that I don't know where we went wrong. Its almost like we have failed him, but we have done the same things and methods with his brother and he has turned out wonderfully. I refuse to give up. There is a pyr picnic about an hour away that we want to attend, but its a little bit of a drive if kieran will be uncomfortable the whole time. Thanks for the advice, and I probably have forgotten to answer questions. Oh, he is very food motivated, but that hasn't worked for leash training yet either. Are there any mental issues he could have that would cause his behaviors, our vet didn't think so, but unfortunately pyrs aren't his specialty, not many vets down here are, we will keep searching for one with experience, but for now, who better than pyr owners to ask? Thanks

nick's spirit
01-27-2010, 01:40 PM
Kieran sounds alot like Holly was, actually he sounds better adjusted!
If he is a good dog in every other way than going for a walk...leave him home. Sounds like that is where he is comfortable. I asked an Anatolian breeder/author what she thouhg thought of Holly's behavior as I described it to her. She said that some LGD's have a tough time deciding whether to be companion dogs or guarding dogs. She had one that was afraid of going through the hallways in her house, shaking & crying the whole time. Whe I read your comment about feeling like you have fsiled him in some way, boy that brought back memories, and I know how you feel.You have not failed him. Give him time, he sounds like a perfectly happy guy, he doesn't growl, he doesn't snap..he just prefers not to go for a walk right now. That may change. I think sitting with him, calmly in the yard is a good thing. Lucky that you live in Florida, nice sunny days to sit & enjoy each others company. We are not all the same...neither are our dogs.

witsend7772
01-28-2010, 06:22 AM
sometimes I have noticed that Theo over thinks things! One of the qualities of these dogs are that they are so intelligent and they THINK. I know that as a pup he was always thinking through anything that was new. His first was going up steps in the house. At times he would just sit and cry for us when we went to bed. We would call him, bribe him, and even carry him upstairs! lol my hubby would moan and groan about that - carrying an 60 lb pup up the stairs while Theo would have his legs spread wide. lol Theo always thinks things over before he does anything! In my classes I suggest that all dog lovers use the 3 P's - Patience, Practice, and Persistence. lol I do have a lot of suggestions for them to walk on a leash if you want them just e mail me. Witsend7772 ( Kay)

Kate53
01-28-2010, 08:15 AM
lots of questions so I'll try to answer then all. We got the puppies when they were 8 weeks old. They know the basic commands and we originally walked them seperatly so the training would be focused on one pup at a time. Kieran never was too excited about walking and leaving him behind doesn't seem to bother him... At all. He is actually quite content to stay home. We have tried walking him with kujo, but with np prevail. Kieran screams and kujo looks at him like he is the oddest animal to ever exist. Kieran now refuses to even go out the front door, or anywhere near it for that matter. I will try sitting in the yard with him and just letting him relax, so he will see there is nothing to worry about. The really frustrating thing is that I don't know where we went wrong. Its almost like we have failed him, but we have done the same things and methods with his brother and he has turned out wonderfully. I refuse to give up. There is a pyr picnic about an hour away that we want to attend, but its a little bit of a drive if kieran will be uncomfortable the whole time. Thanks for the advice, and I probably have forgotten to answer questions. Oh, he is very food motivated, but that hasn't worked for leash training yet either. Are there any mental issues he could have that would cause his behaviors, our vet didn't think so, but unfortunately pyrs aren't his specialty, not many vets down here are, we will keep searching for one with experience, but for now, who better than pyr owners to ask? Thanks


I see that you are in Orlando.....not far from me I might add! I am assuming this Pyr picnic you are talking about is perhaps through the Florida GP Rescue? I do have a contact number for one of the people who works with that group (Terry Stepanek?) and he might be able to put you in touch with a woman named "Marge" who has raised GPs for over 30 years. Maybe they could help you? If you're interested, e-mail me a private message here and I will give you the contact info.

DPW
01-28-2010, 08:29 AM
Glad that you took no offense at my question. Seems kind of silly but over the years I have run into more than a handfull of people having "issues" with their dogs who had never even taught them the basics.
Sounds like your doing everything you can. Hang in there. :)

LylaFrench
01-29-2010, 09:37 AM
sometimes I have noticed that Theo over thinks things! One of the qualities of these dogs are that they are so intelligent and they THINK. I know that as a pup he was always thinking through anything that was new. His first was going up steps in the house. At times he would just sit and cry for us when we went to bed. We would call him, bribe him, and even carry him upstairs! lol my hubby would moan and groan about that - carrying an 60 lb pup up the stairs while Theo would have his legs spread wide. lol Theo always thinks things over before he does anything! In my classes I suggest that all dog lovers use the 3 P's - Patience, Practice, and Persistence. lol I do have a lot of suggestions for them to walk on a leash if you want them just e mail me. Witsend7772 ( Kay)

Hi there witsend7772! I read this message you had written, and thought maybe she can help. Our pup in 3 mths, just got her, she HATES the leash, half the time we have to drag her to get her to go outside. :( I don't know if it's just stubborness or what. We have read several different methods of how to train her on a leash, such as a short leash, a pinch collar(which scares me), an so on. From your experience with this breed what is the most effective technique that you have found? Sorry to write you so much, I just feel like you know what your talking about. Thank you and God bless!!! :)

fluffylove
01-29-2010, 10:34 AM
Breaking in a pyr with a leash is like breaking in a horse. They are stubborn adn want to do things their own way. Just be patient, put the lead on the dog and convince them it's not a bad thing, use toys, do not pull on the lead, just gently tug and LOTS of encouragement, pulling = resistence. Tug, and release, use food, toys, people...etc.

Tsunibear
01-29-2010, 10:31 PM
Getting Missy to adjust to a leash wasn't super hard for me. I just put the leash on her collar and let her drag it around for awhile so she got use to feeling it on her collar then I started holding it and letting her guide me then I bribed her to get her to go my way after awhile she loved her leash.

Jewel
01-30-2010, 05:50 AM
Hi there witsend7772! I read this message you had written, and thought maybe she can help. Our pup in 3 mths, just got her, she HATES the leash, half the time we have to drag her to get her to go outside. :( I don't know if it's just stubborness or what.

Didn't you just pick up this pup 3 days ago? And she's not been socialized with humans hardly at all since she was born? You seem to expect this pup to be able to a normal, well mannered and trained overnight. A pup that has not been handled for the first 12 weeks of life can require months of careful socialization before adjusting to life with humans. please do not compare a unsocialized pup's porgress to a properly socialized pup's progress. Patience can mean days and weeks to achieve small steps. It is not likely your pup is being stubborn at this point, it's more likely she doesn't trust you yet. Building up trust takes more than a few days. Patience is a virtue :D

DPW
01-30-2010, 08:25 AM
I guess I either got really lucky or I'm an incredibly effective dog trainer. :D
Cider took to the lead from day one. He was 12 weeks old when we got him. About two weeks after that I put a lead on him for the first time. Had him sit, put the lead on, said "come" and off we went with him walking at my side. I'd stop and he'd stop and sit without me giving him the command. I'd start to walk and he'd get up and walk. Always staying even with me at my left side. He ran ahead and pulled a few times but rarely.
Even today when I walk around the property with him off leash he spends a lot of the time staying just behind me on my left. Of course there are times now that if he gets the idea he wants to go somewhere no amount of calling and whistling will bring him back. Thankfully that doesn't happen too often. But it sure raises my hackles when it does. Then when he returns I have to act like nothings wrong because I'm not about to discilpine him for coming back.
It amazes me that the same dog can make me smile one minute and pull my hair out the next.

dsloveswva
01-30-2010, 08:48 AM
i'm sure you haven't done anything to cause this issue with your pup. joy and i have been to some pyr picnics here in florida.wel live in pinellas and traveled to zephyrhills. nice folks, lots of nice pyrs. i think the idea of attaching the lead and letting him walk around the house is a great idea. have you considered taking him out on a 20-foot lead, sitting down and letting him walk around on it? wonder if that would help. wal-mart sells them for about $8. joy didn't like riding in the car when we traveled to the picnics, but had a great time romping and stomping once we were there. it was great for developing her socialization skills. good luck. peace.

witsend7772
01-30-2010, 06:44 PM
When buying a puppy its first leash and collar - go cheap! The cheaper the better because they grow so fast. Actually the problem a few puppies have had is that they are scared of the new thing that is around their neck. I recommend the lightest weight collar and leash so that it is not scary, heavy, and unobtrusive on their neck. I never ever use a choke chain nor a prong collar - I want the dog to be obeying me, not answering to any harsh correctives. Using a higher pitched silly exciting voice gets them to take a few steps toward you then you can reward it. Takes time but soon she will be looking forward to her walks with you. Praise, a bit of chicken or soft chewy treat and petting will show her she is doing great. My nic is Witsend for a reason - THeo has me there quite often. ROFL Kay

heyitstay
02-06-2010, 02:57 PM
sorry it has taken so long for me to respond its been very busy around here. We have tried all suggestions and kyran just hates the leash, good news is that he fine in the car now and is also fine at the dog park off leash. I figure he has enough yard to roam and if he's content being left behind when everyone else walks then so be it. And yes I was referring to the fl great pyr groups picnick! Very excited and since he does fine at dog parks he will be coming with kujo and I:)

Kate53
02-07-2010, 07:57 AM
sorry it has taken so long for me to respond its been very busy around here. We have tried all suggestions and kyran just hates the leash, good news is that he fine in the car now and is also fine at the dog park off leash. I figure he has enough yard to roam and if he's content being left behind when everyone else walks then so be it. And yes I was referring to the fl great pyr groups picnick! Very excited and since he does fine at dog parks he will be coming with kujo and I:)


Heyitstay, If you run into Terry Stepanek at the picnic, ask him about "Marge" (sorry, don't know her last name) as he is the one that gave me her number some time back. I spoke with her on the phone regarding an issue I had with my Pyr, Queenie. She is very knowledgable about GPs and has had them for over 30 years or so. She might be able to give you some helpful advice on the leash thing. It would be great if you could get some pictures to post of the picnic. I understand it is a great time for everyone...including the dogs!