Need help, don't know where to go

[midwestgirl]

Hi everyone. I joined this board last week in hopes of posting often about my new pyr pup, and getting advice. I sent an (established) breeder in Canada $2500 (for the pup, airfare, and specialized training to be socialized with wheelchair-bound people since my husband and I have several adopted, disabled children).

Now, I have no dog, and the breeder just hangs up on us when we call. He amended his website the other day to read "NONE REFUNDS" (english is not his first language).

Unfortunately, we are in the U.S. and he is in Canada. Is there some sort of overseeing authority? We contacted the CKC but they (understandably) do not deal with contract disputes. Oh yes, and I do have a contract with the breeder.

Thanks for anyone who can help, or at the very least, tell me "tough luck, no way can you fight this."

[fluffylove]

Where did you get your dog from? How old was the dog you were getting? A puppy at 8 weeks if fine to be socilized around wheel chairs. Whoever gave you this advise is very wrong. Wheel chairs rarely pose a problem. Let me know who it was, perhaps in private or not, I would disclose this fraud for who he/she is. I live in Canada, Ontario.
Quebec breeders are not the best lets just say that.

[risestar]

What breeder is this? How did you hear about it?

If the breeder won't allow contact, I would recommend you initiate legal proceedings to recover your investment. You would file locally, under U.S. jurisdiction, ensuring you serve them properly in Canada. They would then have to come to defend or hire a lawyer or they will default. If they default, you can then have it enforced in canada.

Its likely that their attitude will change rapidly once they receive service and will either refund you or give you what you paid for.

[midwestgirl]

Since I wasn't sure what was okay to post here and what would get the post taken down, I didn't want to give much information in my first post. Here is the whole story, and I will send you privately the website of the breeder. He is not in Quebec.

January 2008: After searching online for a good breeder with a long history, I decided to talk to and email several that looked promising. I chose this breeder. I ended up sending (by credit card number over the phone) a $300 deposit to this breeder, after signing the contract he had emailed me. I also wanted to make sure the pup could fly into the major international airport close to our home, because as you can imagine it is not easy to pack up my kids and head out. He assured me this was no problem. A couple other breeders said they don't like to fly their pups and wanted me to come pick one up (or meet me halfway), which is understandable for them but not really desirable for our situation.

April 3, 2008: He called to let me know the puppies had been born, and he would be sure he chose a female with badger markings (what I requested, if possible). He wanted to make sure the puppy had a gentle temperament because he knew our situation with several handicapped children, and said he would observe the pups over the next few weeks and then choose the best one for our situation. He said the pup would be ready to travel in June. We paid another $1200 by credit card.

April and May 2008: The breeder sent pictures of the pup he had chosen for us, she was beautiful and we fell in love with her, and we all decided to name her Lucy. We felt glad to have chosen this breeder, as he responded quickly to any questions we had, either by phone or email. He was very accessible and friendly.

Late May 2008: I had been on his website and saw that for $1000, he would train the pup for 4 weeks. I emailed and asked him about that. He called me right away and wanted to know more about our exact situation so he could socialize the pup for our particular family. I emailed him photos of our family and more information. He wrote back and said that he would take the pup to a local "home" for disabled people so the pup could get used to being around wheelchairs (two of our children use wheelchairs). He would also train the pup in basic puppy training. While we didn't really have the money for it, we decided to go ahead as this would be a lifetime investment and we wanted to start everything off just right, as much as possible. We authorized another $1000 charge on our card for him. The breeder said he would email weekly updates of the training session and then send along a training dvd (when the puppy traveled) so we could continue the training. It all sounded wonderful.

This is when we started to get nervous.

Late in June, I emailed asking for a picture and inquired as to how the training was going. Got back a short email saying everything was fine and he would send pictures later. He never did. In July, he called to say that he had been very sick (asthma) and did not do the training properly but Lucy was very well-behaved and he knew we would be happy with her. I asked if we would get a discount on the portion of the training he didn't do but he pretended not to understand me, and acted hurt that I thought he would give me a dog that was not right for us. We decided that we would just accept the pup and cut our losses, life-lesson learned. At least we would have our puppy.

July 1, 2008: He called to say that the pup would arrive at an airport 3 hours away from us, that Friday (July 4). He heard me gasp and then said "But I will not charge you for airfare, because I didn't complete the training properly so I will cover the $300 cost of flight." I scrambled trying to find a way for us to get to the other airport, now it would involve either an overnight stay or several babysitters to care for the kids if I didn't bring them with. Finally got everything set up.

July 3: His son called me and said that there had been a terrible accident with our puppy. She had been frightened by a bear and broke her leg, but we could have another puppy in her place, an all-white female from the same litter. I said I needed to talk to my husband about it. He said I had to make a decision immediately. I said I wanted to talk to the vet that would set the leg (he had not taken her to the vet yet).

We decided to ask more questions. I called him back and said we would consider the other dog if the training portion of our fee ($1000) would be refunded. At that point the breeder himself called back and said that the new dog had received exactly the same training as our pup (which I thought was strange) but I had to make a decision right now. I said I wanted to speak to the veterinarian and could he give me the number. He refused. Finally after several more conversations he called and said "I have the vet right here, she will talk to you" and he handed his cell phone to a woman. She said it was a fine puppy and would heal just fine. At this point I really did not believe I was speaking to a vet. But of course no way to prove anything and I can't accuse someone on a hunch.

We then asked what our options were. He said:

1. Accept the new pup in her place, but no fees refunded.

2. Accept a refund of $1200, since the deposit was non-refundable, and he then claimed that he DID complete the training so he would not refund any of that cost.

3. Accept the hurt pup after she healed, but give him $300 more to cover vet costs and extra food they would need for six weeks.

We were already completely tapped out and the thought of sending him hundreds more dollars when things had already started to seem really shady did not seem a good idea. So we said we would choose the $1200 refund. He acted very hurt and said he'd never refunded money before and is this really what we wanted? We said it was. The next day he emailed us saying that he had mailed a check for $1200, which was strange because the night before on the phone he said he would just put a refund on our credit card. But whatever. We were so sick of the whole thing we just wanted it over and to try and find another breeder. He said he had sent it regular mail so it would take maybe weeks to get to us. At that point we had our several-week stint of doctor's appts. for the kids, and two of the kids had surgery, so we weren't pursuing it and it got put on the back burner of our lives.

We never received the check.

Late September 2008:

My husband emailed him and said we had never received the money. The breeder replied by email quickly, saying he was in intensive care and almost died of heart problems and his doctor told him it would take a few weeks to recover and also said his doctor told him he shouldn't have "any stress." He said in a few weeks, he would go to the bank and "see what happened" to the check he sent.

My husband called him that day, asking him to please send the money (miraculously, he called the breeder's home phone number that day and he was there, not in ICU). The breeder screamed into the phone and hang up. My husband tried to call him over the next few days, and got the same treatment. The breeder then emailed me saying how rude my husband was but that he knew I was "good woman." I emailed him saying I was sorry it got to this point but if he could just refund the money he had promised, we would put it behind us. He sent an email saying that he would only send the money to us if my husband apologized in the right way. Then he would "go to the bank and see if he could find out what happened to the check."

I have saved all the email correspondence. Honestly we just don't know what to do. I have NO faith that if my husband "apologized" the breeder would then send the money. The breeder also offered to send us the now-healed pup if we would send him money for vet bills AND airfare (about $600 more). At one point he seemed like he would just send us the pup so that's when I joined this forum, confident that maybe this was all worked out and I could join in the fun here.

But then he started refusing our calls again, no pup was coming our way. That's where we are right now. Any advice would be appreciated. I will send more information privately to the mod and admin.

Thank you for your replies so far.

[risestar]

You are very fortunate in the respect that you paid using a credit card, which offers consumer protections for situations such as this.

All you need to do is contact your credit card company and launch a dispute for goods not received, dispute all the charges. The credit card company will send you out a affidavit where you fill out all the details of the dispute and you send it in. Your credit card company will credit you back all your charges unless the breeder would be able to show compelling evidence such as courier shipping etc.

As you supplied the credit card number over the phone and the breeder does not have your signature, the cards are stacked in your favor for a complete refund.

however, you should make contact now with your credit card company as most credit card companies offer a limited window in which to dispute, usually 6 months or so.

[midwestgirl]

Risestar, thank you so much for your advice! I have used credit cards for over 30 years and have never disputed anything before, so I really didn't know that option existed. This morning we found the exact transaction date (we have online records) and contacted Visa. They are sending out a certified letter to the merchant (kennel owner). The proof is then on him and if he cannot produce a signed receipt (which he does not have of course, since I never signed anything with him or the airlines) then they credit our account.

It is nice to know that the burden of proof falls on the merchant, not the consumer. I guess that's why they call it the "consumer protection plan." :p

Really appreciate you taking the time to hear our tale of woe. When this gets settled and we have our money, I will be looking at the suggestions that were sent to me by private message. I know there are many fine kennels out there and I will have a pup at some point.

[midwestgirl]

The wheels are turning, here is the update. Since my DH is the primary card holder, correspondence is being sent to him. This amount is not the full charge, because the $300 deposit to hold a puppy was made in January with a different card. We're disputing that too but since it's been so long they are not hopeful about getting that back.

RE:Commercial Bank and Trust Dispute

Dear BRETT xxxxx:

Thank you for your recent inquiry regarding the transaction listed below.

Transaction date: 5/13/2008
Merchant Name: XXXXX
Transaction Amount: $2393.89
Case Number: xxxxxxxxxxxx

This letter is to acknowledge we have received your inquiry and are working quickly toward a resolution. Upon completion of our investigation, we will send another letter informing you of the outcome or possible additional information we may need from you to assist in handling the inquiry.

Sincerely,

B. Conner
Customer Service Associate

[fluffylove]

This guys needs to get booted from the CKC or atleast reprimanded.
I know lots of breeders ship puppies across via airlines, but it's hard to trust them if you've never met them. There's another lady breeder of pyrs in Quebec that has stolen a dog from someone and refuses to return it. Not nice etiquette among pyrs.

[midwestgirl]

Hey fluffylove,

We did contact the CKC again, and spoke to Diane (staff liaison for the discipline committee). She confirmed that they will take no action (even investigative) unless a court makes a judgment against the breeder. Since we don't anticipate having to take this to court, I guess the CKC won't do anything about him.

Nonetheless, when Visa returns the money to our account, we will send CKC a registered letter with our story and a copy of the Visa determination. That's about all we can do.

Except for posting the kennel's name here, which we WILL do when this is over. He's a very angry man, and a thief, and others need to be warned not to give this man a penny.

[midwestgirl]

And yet another update. Today the credit card company that we made the $300 deposit with confirmed that it had been too long ago (January) to get that money back and at this point the only way to do that is to take him to small claims court. (we still anticipate that the bulk of the money, over $2300, WILL be returned since that payment was made in May). We checked with our county clerk who talked to the judge, and the judge said since it was an internet transaction and we had to file in the jurisdiction of the business address. DH told me "Then that's what we'll do." I nearly fainted, LOL! So we will file, the breeder will be served, and DH will travel up for the hearing (it's a different process in Canada, the case is heard by a justice of the peace).

There's lots of paperwork to fill out but we feel that the more we learn about this guy, the more we find that he has treated others poorly too. And he does not need to have his dogs registered with CKC as he is breaking the spirit of the law and what breeders should live up to. So if we get a court judgment against him, CKC will investigate. If they find that he is at fault they have a disciplinary committee set up to handle it.

Thanks for the support here, it means a lot and we will keep you up to date. There may be some lags, because at this point he is given 30-45 days to respond to Visa with any documentation he may have (which he does not have).

[fluffylove]

My breeder knows him and I'm going to spread what happen like wild fire, including our vet that does rescue/breeding. He's a disgrace, I checked out his site, he just gives me the creaps. He calls himself a freaken trainer becuase he watched a few videos? Give me a break. I checked out the videos, what a scam. Training dogs to do tricks is a peice of cake, doing behavioral modification like stop barking, attacking, aggression, separation anxiety is a whole other ball of wax. Good luck with it. Anything you want me to forward through my breeder I'd be more than happy to. LIke I said, she has met this male and let's just say he hasn't made any friends this way. You're not the only one. My breeder would not sell a dog to him for no amount of money!

[midwestgirl]

Sure will keep you updated. I'll PM you anything "legal" we get, or scan it and email it. Once all is said and done and we have our money back, I don't care what I post, LOL, but until then let's just say he is a very vindictive person.

Thanks for being in our corner, it helps to know we aren't alone.

[fluffylove]

And in the red corner.... What's right is right and I hear nothing but bad stuff from all angles it's not hard to take a side. There are far too many bad breeders in it for the money and not enough for improving the breed. Too many myths about line/inbreeding, training, etc. I want this person exposed to the canine community, not just pyr community. Go get 'em!
:o)

[midwestgirl]

But what seemed like bad news is actually good :)

Our credit card company declined to pursue the charges, since more than two billing cycles have passed. We tried to push it but no go. Of course the breeder KNEW that the cc company wouldn't pursue after a couple billing cycles and that is why he kept promising the money (or the puppy) until it was too late to get our $$ back.

So we have filed a small claims suit for the entire amount, and we'll travel to his province when the case comes up. We have tons of documentation which we have compiled in a folder. But omg we had to get a money order for the court filing fees, and it had to be in Canadian dollars. After going to the p.o. and local bank, we were told we could only obtain this at the main bank downtown! LOL. Anyway, we called the court clerk yesterday and she confirmed that our claim had been received and would be put on the docket. As soon as we get the official papers we will serve our friend. More good news, the court clerk was really nice and suggested we sue for travel expenses as well, as that was customary when there were a lot of expenses involved.

We've talked to a lawyer (who is not involved with this case) and after looking at our documentation, feels that it is a pretty sure thing for us. Anything can happen I guess but it seems pretty open and shut.

We'll have to hire a babysitter or two for the few days we will be traveling, so we also put that into the cost of what we are trying to recover. Our babysitters come from nursing services because of our children's disabilities...we wouldn't feel comfortable leaving them without a trained professional for that amount of time (we have "regular" babysitters who do just fine for a couple hours or whatever). So anyway, the service that provides the sitters charges a lot :D

[fluffylove]

NAIL HIM TO THE WALL! I'm so glad you are doing this, who knows how many people you are helping by doing this! When you are done, spread his name around like wildfire, or whatever your lawyer says to do legally. I'm keeping everyone in my area/club informed and letting them know what this home sapien is up to, as I can not call him anything else good.
Good for you! Hope you get some for your troubles and get him out of this business!!!!

[midwestgirl]

I don't want to bore all of you with incremental updates, but it's time!

We had a process server give him the lawsuit papers, and he had 14 days to respond to the court. He responded with a countersuit for $10,000 saying that my husband had slandered him to CKC. Well I'm pretty sure I can't be sued for something someone else did ;) So I just sent in my reply to the court denying that I had ever contacted CKC. (My husband had written CKC and cc'd this breeder on the email, it wasn't a bad email we were just trying to figure out how to get even some of our money back and explaining the situation).

Obviously the breeder has now received documentation and realizes that I'm not quite so stupid as to think he could really get a judge to rule in favor of him getting $10K from me.

I got this email from him this morning (remember, English is not his first language):

------------------
Hello, *****!
I contact you to trill again to fixed this situation .
I am still willing to refund you the $ 1200.00 Canadian if you send me a apologize regarding the email your husband send to CKC .I will my self stop the court case I thing is the best for all of us .
I will send this email to the small claim and if you agree let me know I will be do the transfer to your credit card it will be very fast this can be being us in few days..
I hope you been have a great holiday season I wish you the best to you and your family and hope we can result this in peace .

Note :I will accepted the apologize from you .For my size I am very sorry to have this go that far it was not my intention I am breeding dogs to made those puppies a great home and have client enjoyed those fantastic Great Pyrenees
---------------

I removed his name from the bottom of the email to post it here.

I'm not going to reply to his email. I certainly have no sympathy for someone who tried to cheat my handicapped children out of thousands of dollars (the dog was to be an inside dog for my children, as I already have my livestock guardian pyr outside who does chores with me and hangs out with me!).

If he had offered to refund the money we spent on training too, I might have accepted...but on the other hand I am certainly NOT going to ever give him my credit card number and trust that he would put money ON the card and not take it off, LOL!

Oh now I feel all insulted... ;)

It's not convenient for us to travel way up to Canada for the court date but I have a very good friend in B.C. and we've written to each other for years, but I've never met in real life and I could see her. That would be good!

I think this breeder feels stuck now, because if I do win the judgment (and I really do think we will) then CKC will take action.

Thanks again to all of you who are following this loooong process! I'm not giving up!

[fluffylove]

LIke I said, go get him. I'd like to see him kicked right out of the CKC. For the record, someone that watchs a dvd on dog tricks is NOT a dog trainer! He's a pathetic excuse and from my end he needs to put kicked out period. I would not settle for anything less than that.
You apologize??? On earth for what? He can't even write in decent english. Do everyone a favour, enjoy this and get him out of the CKC. He shouldn't be breeding and claiming he's a dog trainer in the first place. Right there he's teling you he doens't know what he's talking about. Did you see those dvds they sell? sigh. Not another wacko.
Good luck, hope you enjoy yourself giving him what he deserves. Maybe those that want his name you can private message them.
:o)
two thumbs up girl, who knows how many people he's done this to!
Thank you on behalf of all those he's cheated.

[midwestgirl]

I haven't posted in awhile as we were just waiting for the settlement conference from the Canadian court in Terrace, B.C., that would take place before the trial (if we agreed to an amount during the conference then there would be no trial).

Background: I had asked the court for a "settlement conference" via phone (the clerk and the defendant would be on speaker phone, as would I, so we could all hear each other). This was to see if we could resolve the matter to both parties' satisfaction so there wouldn't have to be a trial. I requested this because it's thousands of kilometers for me to travel (but I would have!). The conference was April 16. When the secretary (I think) ascertained that it was me on the phone and that the defendant had arrived in person, we were told to hold for the judge. I thought that was odd, as I had been told judges don't get involved in settlement conferences, usually it is a court clerk or lawyer, as the judges just preside over actual trials. Then the judge explained on speakerphone that he took a personal interest in this case (he didn't say why, but perhaps it was because I was an American and this city is pretty remote up in Canada).

Right away the breeder started blathering on and it didn't take the judge long to stop him and tell him to stick to the relevant facts. The breeder didn't and just kept saying how unfair it was and he was in intensive care or had an asthma attack or any other number of health issues that were always the reason he could never return my money.

It was clear rather quickly to the judge that he needed to take control of the situation. He asked me to explain my side, which I did, and the whole time the breeder kept interrupting and saying "THAT'S NOT TRUE" or "THAT DID NOT HAPPEN" or my favorite, "MORE LIES FROM HER." I lost track of how many times the judge told him to be quiet.

When the judge had heard both sides and asked a few more questions, he got really firm with the breeder and quoted from this law Sales law (http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1SEC818552) to him and said that if he didn't settle today and this went to trial, he would likely lose and even if I were awarded only a portion of what I asked, I would likely also be awarded travel and court filing expenses as well, which would be thousands of dollars as we would have to bring our disabled children with us. Then the breeder asked about his counterclaim (where he was suing me for $10,000 for "slander" of his good name). The judge said he had no jurisdiction over defamation suits. The breeder got upset and said "Why did the court allow me to file a counterclaim and waste my money if they could not help?" The judge told him that the court clerks take whatever comes across their desk, it's not the clerk's job to decide matters of law, and it is up to the person filing the suit to acquaint themselves with the law. The breeder wouldn't back down and kept trying to tell the judge how unfair that was. Finally the judge had enough and told him he was going on record and the judge said he was "setting aside" the counterclaim and the breeder would have to file it with the Supreme Court if he wanted to pursue it. The breeder said loudly "THEN THAT IS WHAT I WILL DO." (hah--bring it on).

Then it was time to try and come to an agreement. The breeder said that he had always been willing to return $1200 to me but that the check had somehow gotten lost in the mail. My position was that by this time I had invested $3108.49 ($2500 for the dog and training, the rest in phone calls and court filing costs). There was some banter back and forth (felt like I was at an auction!) and the breeder finally offered $2000. The judge then asked me what I thought was fair. I said "he's had my money for over a year, so I think $3108.49 is fair." The judge kind of chuckled, then a little more back and forth and the judge threw out $2500 as an offer for both sides to consider as it was clear I wasn't going to settle for less than I had invested in the dog. We both finally agreed to the $2500 if I would immediately fax a letter to the court saying that this mutually satisfies all parties. The breeder had to go get a bank draft (we call it a cashier's check but in Canada it's called a bank draft, the judge educated me :) ). The judge gave the breeder 30 minutes to go to the bank and get a draft made out to me for the $2500 and the registrar would verify the check and then send it on to me, taking the breeder out of the equation.

Oh and the best part and perhaps what will stick with me, mainly because I had had sooo many "promises" from the breeder soooo many times that "the check was in the mail" or that he was soon going to return my money "very soon" by crediting it to my credit card, that I found it EXTREMELY AMUSING that the breeder showed back up at the court with a bank draft for the wrong amount. This was only noticed after the court had called me back to reconvene. The breeder tried to make light with the judge about how funny it was and I have to say, the judge had the patience of a saint to put up with this, and told him to go back to the bank and get a draft for the proper amount.

Bottom line: The court verified the authenticity of the bank draft and the registrar is sending it to me. This means it will not go to trial but that I am getting back everything I paid out to the breeder, and I will now send this information to CKC and inform them of the poor practices of one of their breeders. What they do with it is up to them.

Judge Milne of Terrace, B.C. court, you are truly a class act and have done the impossible, which is make this breeder pay what he owed.

Thanks to you who have PM'd me about this. It has taken many months but what the breeder did was not right and hopefully he will think twice before he cheats someone else.

[rhodiegal]

Wow - I was getting soooo angry reading your story and am so glad it turned out fairly for you. It is unbelievable all the trouble you had to go through for that thief. What could that person have been thinking - I am sure he was hoping you would just give up. I had to laugh at the audacity of him asking for an apology from someone who did nothing wrong - what is he, some kind of prima donna? Anyway, glad it turned out in your favor and justice was served.

[fluffylove]

AWESOME job Midwest. I hope this guy gets booted. Everything from what I have heard on my end from the breeders here is not good.
Woo Hoo!

[midwestgirl]

After continuing to threaten us with a defamation suit, he must have talked to a lawyer who told him to forget it (as he would have had to file in the supreme court and I doubt they'd extradite my husband for an email, hah). So today I got this gem in my inbox, and he copied my husband, and my husband's place of business. As usual, I find it extremely difficult to understand his english.
---------------------------
I just want to let you know I was never lie and I have never take advantage to the situation but on your side you lie to me ,the Judge and CKC .I am sure when in the morning you look your self in the mirror you can see what I am tell you . I am take back my apologize to you: your not deserve any of my sympathies .
For people's have God and your live you need to start read and make the way Jesus learn us the way to live
I am moving on my live and I will kip breeding those great dogs to bring to nice family .
I have learn a big lesson never sale and finalize a contract whit out sign of the client; made more precaution even if the client or seem good
I have more reference and testimonies of Happy client Your are my first disappointments after 70 puppies sold in Canada and US .
I will kip all the evidences .
By the way Lucy doing fantastic and she going to my first program of therapies Dog
I very like to find from you a puppies of 4 months been train for handicap person and be graduated for only $1000.00 this is will be a premier .
I have so much to tell you but it time I forget you
---------------

[midwestgirl]

Thanks, rhodiegirl and fluffy love :)

rhodiegirl: Yes, I think he is some kind of prima donna. Sure likes to hear himself talk, anyway.

[risestar]

Good to hear you finally got satisfaction and hope you finally find the pup you are looking for.

I get the feeling that this persona has done this sort of thing before and likely got away with it. Fortunately the court system is public record and so there will be a record of this for the future so hopefully this will urge him to straighten out or get gone from what he is doing